Knabe Grand - Can it really be that old?

scsiraid · Post by **scsiraid** » 06 Feb 2004, 01:12

We just purchased an old Knabe Grand Piano. The serial number indicates that this piano is very old... pre 1860. I just cant believe that based on its condition. Dealer indicated it was around 90 years old. My wife says it plays beautifully. Here are some pictures.

http://home.nc.rr.com/dkeener/

Does this look like the style of 1860? Serial number was on the keystop (I believe that is what it is called) and is 2440.

Any thoughts or pointers to resources to help determine its lineage would be appreciated.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 06 Feb 2004, 01:33

Twentieth-centruy grands are usually quite similar, and I can't see any specific clues, but I would have thought 90 years was a good guess. The number would be around 70,000 or so. Press www below, then press the "Numbers" button. Also, try "Datemarks".

scsiraid · Post by **scsiraid** » 06 Feb 2004, 02:21

So are you thinking that 2440 is not the serial number and I should continue looking? Its obviously a Knabe but I think that is about all we know for sure. All the pictures of Knabe's that we have seen do not have the double post legs that this one does. I dont know if that clue helps date it. Would any other detail picture perhaps help?

Thanks for your reply!!! You are surely up late!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 06 Feb 2004, 10:19

I work musician's hours! Yes, I would go on looking for a number, and ideally, one which appears more than once, or which is confirmed by the last 3 digits stamped into any of the removable parts of the case. I have very little experience of american pianos, but they often followed european trends, and I think it is early 1900s. The frame inside also looks too modern to be anything like 1860, and it wouldn't have had 88 notes, or the straight pedal unit.

Eric Wolfley · Post by **Eric Wolfley** » 06 Feb 2004, 15:41

This piano looks like it used to be a reproducing (player) grand...most likely an Ampico system from my memory. I've worked on a few of these. The double legs are the clue...almost all reproducers had double legs to hide the mechanism. If you crawl underneath you will possibly see evidence of a removed mechanism - empty screw-holes, a slot in the keybed for the pneumatic fingers to hit underneath the backs of the keys. From the case styling and my knowledge of these systems I would guess the early 1920s as a date of manufacture...late teens at the earliest, early '30s at the latest. They did make some grands with similar legs but no mechanism.

Eric Wolfley · Post by **Eric Wolfley** » 06 Feb 2004, 15:49

I forgot to mention that the number you found is what we call the case number. Since the cabinet and other parts of the piano often travel on different paths in the factory, a number is stamped on them to keep everything matching. The number is different than the serial number because the serial number often isn't assigned until the instrument is complete.

scsiraid · Post by **scsiraid** » 06 Feb 2004, 18:30

Thanks Eric, I will crawl under this evening and take a look. Any hints on where the serial number may be hiding?

scsiraid · Post by **scsiraid** » 06 Feb 2004, 18:43

Eric, I should have checked my phonemail before I replied. My wife saw your response and left me a message that there are in fact holes in the bottom where a 'player' mechanism most likely used to be. Excellent call... Now if we could just find the serial number.

Were there may Grand Players made? Seems like a relatively unique item?

Thanks for your help!!!!!

Eric Wolfley · Post by **Eric Wolfley** » 06 Feb 2004, 19:37

The serial number is normally inked onto the iron plate in the front somewhere near the tuning pins. It looks like your piano has been rebuilt at some point since everything looks too shiny inside to be original. If this is the case, they may have painted over the serial #. The serial # will likely be 5 digits though in 1927 Knabe got into the 100,000 range. Take off whatever parts you can safely remove and look for a number like that...it could be just about anywhere. Player grands were once fairly common around here, but obviously there are fewer every year. There are many websites you can visit dedicated to player piano history, etc.

scsiraid · Post by **scsiraid** » 06 Feb 2004, 20:54

My wife found faint lettering "Ampico" on the piano. So now its is absolutely certain that it was a reproducing piano.

Thanks!!!