Erard Grand Piano 12248

[Peterhills]

hi All

We are in New Zealand and I have been reading and digesting (trying to) all the really helpful advice given. It has been great reading it all. I have been organising the restoration of a full Erard Grand (with the "Patent Erard London" lettering and the serial number 12248. The maker would appear to be MARTIN who has left his name (stamped) in one corner. I have also been lucky to find a restorer (older and of German descent but now in NZ) who has wonderful knowledge of the action and has been painstakingly doing the right thing by the restoration. We are lucky and the piano has been kept in very good but original condition.

I am interested to see if there were any records kept or how we might find the "origin or owners" or any other fascinating information. I know the last owner had it for 50 years but that leaves a lot of years unknown. ( I am assuming London made 12248 is about 1871?). I am also interested in the type of music that the Erard is best suited to. Parts are so hard to find and so any advice on where to go would be great - even the type of paint they used on the inside on the board or the right polish.

If photos help I can post them.

[Bill Kibby]

The number suggests that it was made around 1870, and these London instruments were usually marked with a year on the left-hand end of the action, as explained about halfway down the page at
http://pianogen.org/numbers.html
so your technician can check that, and I would be interested to know the date, and it would be nice to have photos of the whole piano for my files. Martin was one of the senior workers at the factory. The polish was probably a basic "French polish" which varied enormously in its constituents and colour. I can't advise you about the paint, what sort of board is painted? As you can read near the bottom of the page at
http://pianogen.org/archives.html
the Erard archives do exist, but they are in the process of being reviewed for possible publication although this will take years of research. Sadly, these are the Paris archives, nobody knows what happened to the London records, so it is unlikely you will ever find original details, that's why it is so helpful to learn what I can from every individual piano.

Parts are simply not available, they would have to be made from scratch or adapted from others. What sort of parts are needed?

It is very much a matter of personal opinion what music Erards are suitable for, but obviously this one would have been used originally for music composed up to the 1870s. In my repertoire, the 1860s and 1850s would include...
American National Anthem
Battle Hymn of the Republic
Beautiful dreamer
Blaydon races
Camptown races
Can can
Comin' through the Rye (polka)
D' ye ken John Peel
Drink to me only with thine eyes
Early one morning
Floral dance
God bless the Prince of Wales
Hop, skip, jump
I wish I was in Dixie
Jeannie with the light brown hair
Jimmy crack corn
Little brown jug
Man on the flying trapeze
My bonnie is over the ocean
O little town of Bethlehem
Oh! No John No!
Poor black Joe
Scotland the brave
Skip to my Lou
There is a tavern in the town
Turkey in the straw
Wearing of the green
What a friend we have in Jesus
When Johnny comes marching
Yankee doodle went to town

[vernon]

Bill
How do you know so much!
As you know it was(and is) the custom for the various craftsmen to stamp the area of their expertise on their work.
The stringer, marker off case maker, finisher and regulator tuner etc as a mark of pride.
it is interesting to see their names on different instruments. I used to stamp all the pianos I finished and regulated but still have to come across one of my masterpieces!
Anyone who has an old Monington and Weston piano stamped "Vernon Kennard" must be worth a fortune .

[Bill Kibby]

Although the general process is mentioned on my website, I would appreciate any further information you can give me on that process, such as who made the stamps, or what kind of people had name stamps.

[vernon]

Bill
I had a name stamp made in the 1950s that I still use on good repairs.
I've no idea who made it but it was a firm in Sheffield.
Come to think of it ,it must be on the Web as I got one for my daughter about three years ago. I'll see if I can find the Firm.

[vernon]

Bill
Eyre and Baxter(Stampcraft)

[Bill Kibby]

Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were one of those legendary names that were stamped in the factory during manufacture.

[vernon]

Actually I used to go under the name of Julius Bluthner.
Perhaps you've come across me!

[Peterhills]

We have run into a difficulty in that the centre carved piece on the 2 candle holder carved stands (either side of the main stand) are missing. I have a carver ready to go but need pictures of what it looked like on the 1870 model. Same as this model
http://shafferpianos.com/erardb.sm.JPG

[Bill Kibby]

I realised that I had heard of #12248 before, in 2011, but didn't realise I had this low-resolution picture showing the fretwork in question, still intact, although blurred. This is the only suitable Erard picture I can find for the period.

I don't know if this version helps...

[Peterhills]

yes that is the Erard that we are restoring - the fretwork has a bit missing in the middle of both sides (it looks like it is meant to be empty but it is simply missing) ... I have seen similar fretwork as per the shaffer picture ... but not the sides ... hopefully someone has a Erard in one piece

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry that is not clear from the photo. It's worth going onto Google Images every week and searching for something obvious like Erard grand piano. Have you asked Shaffer pianos?

[NewAge]

Would the following photo link be of any help?
http://s3images.pianoshop.co.uk/g005356_0001_orig.jpg

Command+ (on a Mac) allows zoom onto the image which gives greater clarity to details of the fretwork.

[Bill Kibby]

Thanks for that, it may be very useful. I acknowledge many of the superiorities of MACs, but PCs are also capable of enlarging images!

[Peterhills]

I had been searching google images for months - so I am most pleased to see the real thing - thank you thank you thank you. I have also been reading with interest this blog - http://erardpianorestoration.blogspot.co.nz/

[Peterhills]

hi again

the sound board has come up nicely - we haven't taken off the strings so it has been really time consuming to clean - a good night time job. How to clean up the strings ...the next challenge ... steel wool, really fine sandpaper ...?

[Bill Kibby]

I had hoped that someone would have chipped in with some useful advice for you on that one.

[Colin Nicholson]

Its possible that 'someone' could have thought that when Peterhills said "Hi again".... he was referring to you again Bill? .... like a two-way conversation or "by the way...."
Its easy to lose Piano Advice amongst History.... so if its not replied - its been missed or overlooked.... so feel free to wake us up and pop that question again on the Advice section!

I might have cleaned the strings first - then the soundboard.

I wouldnt use wire/steel wool - as it disintergrates - and it often gets caught up in the bass string windings. Nor sandpaper. Best to use silicon carbide [wet & dry] .... but use it dry.... start with around a 240 grit and see how you go.... depends on the condition of the strings/rust/corrosion? .... and take care not to nudge or disturb the dampers.

Hope that helps.... possibly too late though!

[Peterhills]

hi everyone

We have made it almost to the finish line - the joiners have made a super job of restoring the case, and Jochen my piano engineer has restored the action and strings .. and the soundboard is cleaned and pristine.

We have one more thing to go.

We are one hammer short - so the contest or task is to find / build a new shank, hammer head core and the leather-felt cover for one

....so I was wondering if anyone has a complete one, or part of one, for an Erard 1871 or simliar - safely tucked away in their parts drawer

... a long shot I know

thanks to you all for reading and helping - we have needed and used all your guidance

Peter H

[Colin Nicholson]

If you or your engineer are unsuccessful in finding a spare hammer shank & head complete....

Firstly - hammer heads are ordered separately - they dont usually come with shanks, unless a piano supply co can match an odd head for you. Erard shanks are unique - and available as a shank only or complete with a 'generic' head to match your neighbouring hammers. (and might sound different to other notes).

There are 3 different designs of new Erard shank available in some UK supplies (either as a set or single) subject to availability; usually ordered 'bare' - just the shank - with no flange/roller leather/knuckle/hammer head and drop screw as shown by the images. You may get one and order it complete or made up if your engineer sends a neighbouring one to a piano supply. Usually made from hornbeam. You also need to measure the distance from the centre pin location to the centre core of the roller - usually around 15-17mm - but may vary.

Flanges may also be tapered with or without a notch, and depending on the design of the underside of the flange, may be flat/ridged / notched or 'ogee' shape - like some Steinway flanges. The distance from the centre of the flange screw hole to the roller/ centre pin is also important.... some have to be made to pattern.

The hammer head will also vary in size/ length & profile depending on which one is missing, so bore length details may be needed. Remember that the bore length is different from the total hammer length. New hammer heads usually come un-bored for you to drill at an angle - if an overstrung bass hammer for eg.

There are no parts catalogues specifically available and 'labelled' for a "1870s Erard Grand" - and even a similar grand to yours may have different shanks & flanges/ double flanged etc..... you need to study the images, measure ,compare and order.... this also applies to other shanks - eg "S&S" shanks are Steinway - there is a long list of parts, but not designated to a particular brand/model of Steinway piano, nor relating to its age and/or serial number. By contacting the piano supply co., they would then confirm the measurements after you sending them a shank, or measuring it accurately - and sending drawings.

A 'dated' piano may also have been previously fitted with mahogany or walnut shanks - but normally hornbeam - which is a whiter hard wood.

The flange then needs to be pinned to the shank through the bushings using an appropriate centre pin.

Feel free to email me if you would like an estimate and further information.

A new hammer head would be temporarily located & unglued - to be glued in-situ with the rest of the hammers on the action/ trimming off excess shank. The tail will also need to be profiled & roughened...... so its not really a question of the 'odd spare in a drawer' hammer fitting your action - very specialised!.... and must fit exactly right, or the note wont work.

The usual procedure for a shank & head replacement is ....
1. Send 2 X complete hammers & shanks, one either side of the missing one.
2. Label each hammer which note it belongs to .... eg A1 and B3 (if A#2 is missing)

The piano supplies can them match the missing hammer & shank, then either send you the 'hammer kit' to assemble it yourself/ part assembly of the flange/ complete assembly, except the hammer head would be loose & unglued/ excess shank showing to be trimmed after gluing.

Parkes of Sydney, Australia may be able to help if you have an account with them?

Hope that helps.... [see below] >>

Erard shanks only

erardshank.JPG (23.11 KiB) Viewed 29369 times

Colin

[Peterhills]

its taken a while but Jochen has received the right wood and parts and made them ... and we now have some spares as well

[Peterhills]

some pictures

[Peterhills]

[NewAge]

Very nice!
A YouTube clip or sound clip of it would now be pleasing.