A pupil of mine has very recently been told by a piano technician to avoid purchasing a vintage Bechstein (1880s) especially as it had been completely rebuilt with a new modern action, strings, sostenuto etc. The reason he gave was it's because Bechsteins suffer from cracked iron frames, a problem exacerbated by the installation of a new set of strings. I've never heard of this before and I suspect it was due to the fact the technician wanted my pupil to purchase his 1870s Steinway!! I would welcome some serious technical feedback on this issue and also on this particular quote from an excellent rebuilder of some 30 years experience.....
".......Bechstein have had a problem with cracks in the frames on some grands in the past , mainly models A & B. This was a casting problem and nothing to do with rebuilding. During the rebuilding process the frames are checked for cracks, any being detected are cold stitched, (this process is accepted by Lloyds as a permanent repair of castings and is used on marine diesels and railway engines) I have never seen a repaired frame (using this method) crack again after a rebuild. I have never heard of, or witnessed a frame cracking after a Bechstein piano was rebuilt. I believe this is scare mongering......."
Comments urgently needed thanks!
Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
Absolutey.
Bechsteins are notorious for it. Caused by insufficient cooling time of the cast iron (it ideally needs years!) and the general crapness of German metallurgy in the late 19th century. Blüthners and Bozos are also known for it, as are thousands of cheap run of the mill Jerry uprights of virtually every name you can think of. Görs & Kallmann leaps to mind.
The good news is that if the frame hasn't already cracked, it's fairly unlikely to do it now, and if the repair is expertly done before a total break occurs by someone such as Metalock, it should be highly satisfactory. I reckon a good 65% of Bechsteins of this type built between 1880 and 1910 are, or have been thus affected. The crack usually occurs vertically on the treble break bars in line with the horizontal frame casting. Take out the music desk, look sideways at the two treble break bars around the wrestplank area. Look for a hairline crack- it will almost looks as if drawn on with a pencil. A good repair will be undetectable.
Although undesirable, and a cracked example will have virtually zero commercial value (unless the case is fabby and by some desirable maker like Sheraton or Lutyens!!) they can carry on for years in such a state. The crack is actually held together in compression by the string tension, and it's often during de-stringing that they break altogether. Of course this means that many a glitzy Bechy has been obtained by many a sharp dealer for mere pence, the frame patched up and then restored (or not... ) as normal. Quality as always is down to the rebuilder's skill.... But you know all that!! If it's done well, there should be no problem. If it's done badly...Amen.
PGx
Bechsteins are notorious for it. Caused by insufficient cooling time of the cast iron (it ideally needs years!) and the general crapness of German metallurgy in the late 19th century. Blüthners and Bozos are also known for it, as are thousands of cheap run of the mill Jerry uprights of virtually every name you can think of. Görs & Kallmann leaps to mind.
The good news is that if the frame hasn't already cracked, it's fairly unlikely to do it now, and if the repair is expertly done before a total break occurs by someone such as Metalock, it should be highly satisfactory. I reckon a good 65% of Bechsteins of this type built between 1880 and 1910 are, or have been thus affected. The crack usually occurs vertically on the treble break bars in line with the horizontal frame casting. Take out the music desk, look sideways at the two treble break bars around the wrestplank area. Look for a hairline crack- it will almost looks as if drawn on with a pencil. A good repair will be undetectable.
Although undesirable, and a cracked example will have virtually zero commercial value (unless the case is fabby and by some desirable maker like Sheraton or Lutyens!!) they can carry on for years in such a state. The crack is actually held together in compression by the string tension, and it's often during de-stringing that they break altogether. Of course this means that many a glitzy Bechy has been obtained by many a sharp dealer for mere pence, the frame patched up and then restored (or not... ) as normal. Quality as always is down to the rebuilder's skill.... But you know all that!! If it's done well, there should be no problem. If it's done badly...Amen.
PGx
That's the sort of wonderful reply that keeps this site to the forefront! THANKYOU PG. However I'm just about to fork out £10,000 for a rebuilt 1920s Bechstein Model C, which I like a VERY much
However two of your passages need clarifying because they seem contradictory.....
1) "......Although undesirable, and a cracked example will have virtually zero commercial value (unless the case is fabby and by some desirable maker like Sheraton or Lutyens!!) they can carry on for years in such a state...."
2) "......A good repair will be undetectable....."
Do I take that to mean that a piano has zero commercial value only if the cracks HAVEN'T been repaired? Or does it 'revert to value' if it HAS had crack repairs.....and even more so if the repairs are undetectable? And if the repairs really are undetectable and have no musical effect should I be worried at all.....surely its value won't be an issue if the repairs are undetectable?
I don't know yet if this particular Bechstein C has had any frame crack repairs. It was rebuilt around 1997 with all-new action, strings and sostenuto and was the featured piano at a yearly international music festival since 2003
Cheers
However two of your passages need clarifying because they seem contradictory.....
1) "......Although undesirable, and a cracked example will have virtually zero commercial value (unless the case is fabby and by some desirable maker like Sheraton or Lutyens!!) they can carry on for years in such a state...."
2) "......A good repair will be undetectable....."
Do I take that to mean that a piano has zero commercial value only if the cracks HAVEN'T been repaired? Or does it 'revert to value' if it HAS had crack repairs.....and even more so if the repairs are undetectable? And if the repairs really are undetectable and have no musical effect should I be worried at all.....surely its value won't be an issue if the repairs are undetectable?
I don't know yet if this particular Bechstein C has had any frame crack repairs. It was rebuilt around 1997 with all-new action, strings and sostenuto and was the featured piano at a yearly international music festival since 2003
Cheers
It will be worth very little if the cracks haven't been repaired, or about half usual commercial value if they have been repaired scruffily but effectively. They should be unnoticeable if they've been repaired well.
Indeed, if they have been repaired undetectably, who is to know anyway? Many have been repaired and their owners are none the wiser. I have only known of one that has cracked a second time after a repair, but the original cracks were so bad that I advised against repair initially. As a rule, I'd be more wary of one where the cracks have penetrated more than 75% of the height of the bar. The less the better, obviously.
Cracked but repairable frames are a good way for a restorer to obtain a potentially decent piano for a very low price, but that's not to say that the finished product will be either substandard or prone to failure. It will just mean that repair costs will be slightly more, (500 quid-ish) and obviously transport of the frame to and from the engineers will have to be accounted for. There is also the added gamble (which accounts for the low price) that the thing could go bang whilst removing strings. A broken frame is unrepairable since the two sides of the break will be misaligned afterwards..
Indeed, if they have been repaired undetectably, who is to know anyway? Many have been repaired and their owners are none the wiser. I have only known of one that has cracked a second time after a repair, but the original cracks were so bad that I advised against repair initially. As a rule, I'd be more wary of one where the cracks have penetrated more than 75% of the height of the bar. The less the better, obviously.
Cracked but repairable frames are a good way for a restorer to obtain a potentially decent piano for a very low price, but that's not to say that the finished product will be either substandard or prone to failure. It will just mean that repair costs will be slightly more, (500 quid-ish) and obviously transport of the frame to and from the engineers will have to be accounted for. There is also the added gamble (which accounts for the low price) that the thing could go bang whilst removing strings. A broken frame is unrepairable since the two sides of the break will be misaligned afterwards..
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Barrie Heaton
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photo of the frame with cracks before repair
http://www.uk-piano.org/forums-photos/B ... before.jpg
and after before the frame is finished
http://www.uk-piano.org/forums-photos/B ... -after.jpg
Barrie,
http://www.uk-piano.org/forums-photos/B ... before.jpg
and after before the frame is finished
http://www.uk-piano.org/forums-photos/B ... -after.jpg
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
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Barrie Heaton
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Well if you have done a lot of virgin Model A’s you will notice that the frame jump up when you take out the bolts and when you put it back it rocks on the pillar bolts so to seat the frame back down you have to turn the bolt 3 -4 full turns which is about 5mm Now you have to put that 5mm back which is a lot you are bowing the cast frame but when it is back under tension the frame is straight.
Now we had a Model A’s back in the 80’s which had 5 cracks big ones, the piano was going to the trade in Italy as a job lot unseen, it had been restored about 10 -20 years before not by us. So we dropped the pitch a 4th placed some feeler gauges in the cracks put some big spanners on the pillar bolts and gave them 2.5 turns the cracks closed not completely but they did close to a hairline (our Bottle went after 2.5 turns ) I pulled it back up to pitch and they stayed shut.
You could say that not putting the frame back under tension helps the crack to develop and I have only seen cracks in frames that have been take out. However, a few techs in the US say they have seen virgin Model A’s with fine cracks but I have not seen one yet.
I have not seen a model C with cracks and the frame comes in and out, with out altering the pillar bolts but I have only had a few model C frames out
The problem with Bechsteins all the records were lost in the war they even argue among themselves over the colour of the bearing felt Blue, Green or Grey so if you asks about the castings - forget it
Barrie,
Now we had a Model A’s back in the 80’s which had 5 cracks big ones, the piano was going to the trade in Italy as a job lot unseen, it had been restored about 10 -20 years before not by us. So we dropped the pitch a 4th placed some feeler gauges in the cracks put some big spanners on the pillar bolts and gave them 2.5 turns the cracks closed not completely but they did close to a hairline (our Bottle went after 2.5 turns ) I pulled it back up to pitch and they stayed shut.
You could say that not putting the frame back under tension helps the crack to develop and I have only seen cracks in frames that have been take out. However, a few techs in the US say they have seen virgin Model A’s with fine cracks but I have not seen one yet.
I have not seen a model C with cracks and the frame comes in and out, with out altering the pillar bolts but I have only had a few model C frames out
The problem with Bechsteins all the records were lost in the war they even argue among themselves over the colour of the bearing felt Blue, Green or Grey so if you asks about the castings - forget it
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
The 'rock' on the frame is dead right.
I suspect that originally there was an accepted 'order' in which to tighten down the frame bolts like a cylinder head on an engine.
I can confirm 100% that I've seen many A and Bs that have never had their frames removed with cracked frames. Cs don't appear to suffer thus.
I suspect that originally there was an accepted 'order' in which to tighten down the frame bolts like a cylinder head on an engine.
I can confirm 100% that I've seen many A and Bs that have never had their frames removed with cracked frames. Cs don't appear to suffer thus.
As a chartered engineer, who has spent his life designing things, I can tell you that the only problem with the vast majority of cracks in piano frames is that people think they are dangerous. They aren't and mostly don't matter at all.
The frame is in constant compression due to the strings pulling the ends together. The cracks appear due to stress relief in the castng, often at a point where there is a weakness of one sort or another (e.g. a void or an inclusion).
The stress builds up through years of playing, and heating up and cooling down, and the cracks mostly make their frst appearance when the piano is being re-strung. Any cracks that appear during manufacture in a frame normally result in the iron frame beng broken up and popped back into the furnace.
The cracks are normally jagged and so the ends 'lock' together when forced back into compresson during restringing. If the crack is parallel to the string in the end of the casting then you would need to get an opinon from a stress engineer. Welding cast iron is not particularly effective and if there is only a single fracture which is in compresson, it's a pointless waste of money.
Finally, noone has ever heard of an iron frame collapsing under the tension to my knowledge in the 20th or 21st century. This is not surprising since it is a very over-engineered item. If collapses had occurred then various government agencies would step in and sort the problem (trading standards, health and safety etc.)
Dire warnings and much sucking of teeth about cracks in frames are mostly sheer bunkum raised by people who either don't know any better, or certainly should. (Incidentally I swapped a Bechstein for a Steinway, and I was very pleased with the swap
)
The frame is in constant compression due to the strings pulling the ends together. The cracks appear due to stress relief in the castng, often at a point where there is a weakness of one sort or another (e.g. a void or an inclusion).
The stress builds up through years of playing, and heating up and cooling down, and the cracks mostly make their frst appearance when the piano is being re-strung. Any cracks that appear during manufacture in a frame normally result in the iron frame beng broken up and popped back into the furnace.
The cracks are normally jagged and so the ends 'lock' together when forced back into compresson during restringing. If the crack is parallel to the string in the end of the casting then you would need to get an opinon from a stress engineer. Welding cast iron is not particularly effective and if there is only a single fracture which is in compresson, it's a pointless waste of money.
Finally, noone has ever heard of an iron frame collapsing under the tension to my knowledge in the 20th or 21st century. This is not surprising since it is a very over-engineered item. If collapses had occurred then various government agencies would step in and sort the problem (trading standards, health and safety etc.)
Dire warnings and much sucking of teeth about cracks in frames are mostly sheer bunkum raised by people who either don't know any better, or certainly should. (Incidentally I swapped a Bechstein for a Steinway, and I was very pleased with the swap
)Otto
If you look on Mark Goodwins site on the pianos sold button, a 1903 C had a cracked frame.
http://www.markgoodwinpianos.co.uk/pian ... rand-piano
http://www.markgoodwinpianos.co.uk/pian ... rand-piano
All very well Otto, and whilst I generally agree with you, especially the crack being in compression as I mentioned in my first post. It's when the rest of the piano needs rebuilding that the frame cracks are a problem, and most old Bechsteins need rebuilding. Removing the strings can cause the frame to break.Otto wrote:
Dire warnings and much sucking of teeth about cracks in frames are mostly sheer bunkum raised by people who either don't know any better, or certainly should. (Incidentally I swapped a Bechstein for a Steinway, and I was very pleased with the swap
The very fact that most people are scared of cracked frames results in the piano thus afflicted being rendered near-worthless, so my advice is to steer clear of a piano that is visibly cracked or has a noticeable repair, because you'll have hell trying to sell it on.
Why are they a problem?It's when the rest of the piano needs rebuilding that the frame cracks are a problem, and most old Bechsteins need rebuilding.
I've never known a piano frame to break except in a piano smashing competition. Why do you say this?Removing the strings can cause the frame to break
Otto
Seems like this is a subject that needed to be aired! Rationally speaking Otto may well be technically correct in his "what's the problem?" appraisal. But unfortunately SENTIMENT is all-important here and the vast majority of purchasers of pianos have acute reservations about certain types of structural defect.....frame cracks being one of them.....even if totally unfounded. People have LOTS of dosh locked up in their instrument purchases and need to heed the pervading sentiment about the acceptibility of certain 'defects' if they want to be sure of their instrument's 'value'. And that's really what my initial query was about. THANKS everyone for helping me out on this
Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
Hi!
I'm very interested in buying a Model C from around 1890, all recently renewed, with an absolutely incredible sound (never heard something this beautiful).
It sells for 38000€ (Belgium), which is approximately 30500 pounds.
Is that excessive ?
Thank you.
Antoine
I'm very interested in buying a Model C from around 1890, all recently renewed, with an absolutely incredible sound (never heard something this beautiful).
It sells for 38000€ (Belgium), which is approximately 30500 pounds.
Is that excessive ?
Thank you.
Antoine
Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
There is a video of it if you need more info... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPHahNoaGQ
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
Not really excessive, but depends on the quality and workmanship of the restoration & rebuild. For that price, you would expect everything new:
Wrest plank, re-strung/ new wrest pins/ cast frame / soundboard checked/ complete new action (with new hammers, shanks etc), casework & pedals/ dampers in mint condition.
Get it checked over though by a piano tuner/technician before buying.
Wrest plank, re-strung/ new wrest pins/ cast frame / soundboard checked/ complete new action (with new hammers, shanks etc), casework & pedals/ dampers in mint condition.
Get it checked over though by a piano tuner/technician before buying.
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Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
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Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
This grand is more like model IV, old design. Bechstein made a later model with a crossing iron bar before they changed to the round tail model C.Zinston wrote:Hi!
I'm very interested in buying a Model C from around 1890, all recently renewed, with an absolutely incredible sound (never heard something this beautiful).
It sells for 38000€ (Belgium), which is approximately 30500 pounds.
Is that excessive ?
Thank you.
Antoine
Recently I have restored one of them from 1897. It had the typical two hair cracks in the treble, and the near tenor one was a full crack while I was finishing (very carefully) to remove the strings!! I studied deeply what happened and I conclude that (besides short cast cooling time, pinblock twisting by wire forces etc.) it was due the anormal high position of the intermediate nose bolts (which connect here with the failure struts, stressing the full plate) and anormal 0,5mm of separation between the plate horns to the belly rail (probably due a case deformation and/or a bad previous restoration). In my opinion these cracks can't be traumatic since they are before the pinblock/frame stretcher. I fixed them with success. In the hair crack one I just drill a 6mm hole where the crack finish and filled it with inox bar. In the full cracked one I put a two sandwich lateral pieces (iron, 5mm deep each) and screwed them strongly (and glued them) all together (threads in the same plank).
I also have changed the pinblock, fixed SB etc, relaxed the plate tension and filled with metal wedges the horn separations before stringing. One month after finished the restoration I don't have more cracks, it tune as a rock and, sincerely, it is one of the best grand piano that never played.
Hope this help,
All the best,
Lluís
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bach_addict
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Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
not quite true because the strings pull slightly upward (because of the downbearing) and this is creating torque along the horizontal axis, which is precisely why the cracks are aligned in the vertical direction and progress from bottom to top...Otto wrote: The frame is in constant compression due to the strings pulling the ends together. The cracks appear due to stress relief in the castng, often at a point where there is a weakness of one sort or another (e.g. a void or an inclusion).
Re: Bechstein grands: frame failure scare?
The down bearing is typically less than a twentieth of the tension of the strings pulling the frame together at the point of the crack. More relevant is the geometry of the frame itself, and there may well be an inherent couple between the top and the bottom of the rib (torque is normally associated with dynamics rather than statics).
Whatever these values are, the frame will only move if either of the forces at the top / bottom of the rib cease to be in compression, or if the difference is enough to allow the faces of the crack to slide past each other. This is better known as the coefficient of friction, and using the figure of one twentieth (above) or 0.05, you would need faces about twice as slippery as wet ice to get any movement. In reality the breaks are normally jagged and 'lock' giving a coefficient of friction of considerably greater than one. And all that assumes that the frame isn't even bolted / screwed to the rest of the piano !
Piano frames are hugely over-engineered for the job they do, and if a 100 year old Bechstein frame isn't obviously hugely corroded, it's going to go on doing its job for a very, very long time to come (like centuries), with or without cracks. It's only at restringing time that the crack(s) may change, and then, maybe, the situation needs to be reconsidered.
Whatever these values are, the frame will only move if either of the forces at the top / bottom of the rib cease to be in compression, or if the difference is enough to allow the faces of the crack to slide past each other. This is better known as the coefficient of friction, and using the figure of one twentieth (above) or 0.05, you would need faces about twice as slippery as wet ice to get any movement. In reality the breaks are normally jagged and 'lock' giving a coefficient of friction of considerably greater than one. And all that assumes that the frame isn't even bolted / screwed to the rest of the piano !
Piano frames are hugely over-engineered for the job they do, and if a 100 year old Bechstein frame isn't obviously hugely corroded, it's going to go on doing its job for a very, very long time to come (like centuries), with or without cracks. It's only at restringing time that the crack(s) may change, and then, maybe, the situation needs to be reconsidered.
Otto