Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
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Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
I have been ask once in 35+ years its quite common in the US to tune none ET scales but most tuners over there uses ETD which have them built in so its a flick of a switchJonathan the 2nd wrote:Is it a bad idea to ask a tuner to tune a piano with a Bach temperament? Do tuners ever pretend to do it and give you a standard equal tuning anyway? "He`ll never notice".
At the end of the day its your piano if you want it tuned backwards I am sure you will find a tuner that will fora ££ more
See Ed Foote page on Historical Tunings between 1750-1825 I have his CD in my collection interesting sound
Barrie,
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Withindale »
As far as my piano goes, I'd ask our tuner to do the best he can for the piano. I suspect the quality of the tuning outweighs the temperament in most cases.
If your tuner can do ET and UT to a high standard why not try a UT?
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Should I specify that I have a non electric piano ? Barrie mentioned flicking a switch. That may be one of the really modern Grand pianos with real strings , and bells and whistles fitted. ( Lottery Dreams ).
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
UT = unequal temperament
An UT can be tuned easily by tuners who use an electronic tuning device (ETD). However, there are lots of UTs to choose from; they all have different characteristics. I wouldn't envisage it costing more, especially if he/she used an ETD.
The only way to see if you like a certain temperament is to try it.
Junior Piano Technician
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Who on earth else wants ut and be be playing in one and half keys excluding the rest of music.
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
I was tuning consultant for the European premier of a John Adams piece that involved 2 x 9' pianos tuned at differing unequal temperaments. There were 2 tunings on each instrument to change them to the new temperaments and 2 tunings each to change them both back to ET afterwards. Plus moving these pianos to various halls for rehearsals, then to the Albert Hall, then to Abbey Road for 2 days of recording. Each piano was tuned before each rehearsal or performance and a tuner attending full time the recording days. We used two tuners to cover the schedule. I don't view jacking the tuning of pianos around as a casual thing.
There are digital keyboards that offer unequal temperaments. You might buy one for the price of a double tuning. You won't get the resonances of strings and soundboard but you will get an idea of what you want and
your curiosity may even be satisfied completely that way and your piano gets a peaceful life.
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Theoretically, any experienced tuner could follow instructions for a different temperament but I have to admit to a strange feeling last time I tuned an unequal temperament after years of tuning in a way I could almost do in my sleep. (I dreamt I was tuning a piano once. When I woke up I was).
Since the piano tuning profession is historically derived from the piano manufacturing industry, not the music industry, there is usually not much in depth understanding of music among tuners. There are many, however whose interest in tuning stems from theis study of music or are open minded enough to do the research to tune your piano the way you want it.
in which part of which country is the piano located? One of us may be able to help you find someone local to you who would be open to this. Otherwise, contact the keyboard department of your local music school, they should be able to point you in an appropriate direction.
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
This time of Year most tuners who can don't want to, too much normal work on if you asked me I would have said no thanks all the tuners that are listed on this site who trained in the 60 to 90s can do it but most are not interested.Jonathan the 2nd wrote:I tried e mailing separate tuners but they only did ET so I had more success by contacting the -Find a Tuner (Tuner`s Association ).They will be able to find a tuner to do the job. He said "dozens". I like that. First I had to work out what tuning I wanted as there are a great many to choose from. More than I ever expected.
As to which Temperament depends what you want to do for voice Meantone is good but then what key. Martin Lock 0161 442 6288 is not that far from you give him a ring he will try to help you.
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
Hmm i did a survey on the ABPTs private list and most are happy to do it but at a price £££Gill the Piano wrote:Lucky gentleman..
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
If you are using an ETD no difference but if you are tuning by ear then no, you have to think about it more if you have spent 30 year putting a round peg in to a round hole then have do it different you have to think once you have set it up then it get a easier each visit, In the USA as more tuners use ETDs then they are more happy to tune to none ET scales. In Europe ET is the norm and unless musicians ask for it more and there are more live performances then tuners will shy away or give you a big billJonathan the 2nd wrote:What would be a problem with a different tuning ? They say a note out of tune in a well temperament would be noticed more.
At the end of the day piano tuners are there to make a profit and they will do what makes the most money with the least time and effort
Barrie
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
I forgot to ask . Below all these questions is my feeling that Teachers and Tuners could get together to work out another Default Tuning which could run parrallel to ET and could be offered . Then try to "persuade "teachers ,players and tuners to realise there was another meal on the menu. Which would be the Tuning you would choose if you had a choice in terms of profitability ? The least worst for difficulty and profit . Is there also a fight against using anything electronic?
I came back to recall my first experience of piano tuners. I must have been no more than 5 years old . The first teacher I ever had was a young Nun all in black clothing with a large white wimple. I remember her leading the blind tuner into class towards the piano , with his white stick . Strangely enough he proceeded to tune away while we were in the same room. That never seemed at all unusual as a kid.
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
If you lay a scale in ET or Meantone you still have to count beats... Take C up to E in ET that's 10.3 BPS tuned wide in Meantone that is 0 BPS Then take E down to A in ET that about 0.74 BPS on the low frequency and about 6BPS on the high frequency or walking pace. but in Meantone that interval is 12.6 BPS and the 6th down is 24BPS
As to why we don't have it much, You can Blame Broadwoods, they marketed their pianos "Our pianos can by played in any Key . That's why Beethoven has one" Then it was Standardization by the music fraternity like they did with A440
I think it was only in the late 1930 that organs change over to ET again Standardization.
As to price To tune a piano that is at A440 from ET to a none ET scale expect to be charge as if it was a pitch move because that is what it will take a few passes to make the piano stable So if your local tuner charges £65.00 then expect £120.00 for the first tuning after that .... !
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
Barrie
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
Now if you want to listed to something different there are pieces out there written in 1/4 tone You need 2 pianos tuned 1/4 tone apart and tuned to Meantone plus 2 players the sound is mesmerising
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
Ed Wilkinson did some in the 70s at RNCB its very old music See wikGill the Piano wrote:Who composed that, Barrie? Sounds interesting.
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
The most famous composers modulated to different keys to achieve more than a brief effect that lasted for a few bars.Their reasons were slung out of the top window with the bathwater when ET descended on us. I can`t help thinking of plumbers when a tuner says "I just tune the things ,I don`t play them ". Just the bottom line , then off to the pub .
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
More than half of tuners don't play the piano its just a job... including me who's off to the pub for some real Ale.Jonathan the 2nd wrote: I can`t help thinking of plumbers when a tuner says "I just tune the things ,I don`t play them ". Just the bottom line , then off to the pub .
Now there a tragedy Not lost temperaments but lost Brewers and there fine ales
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Colin Nicholson »
Bit like the January sales !!
I could even bore you all to tears with all the physics behind ET and non ET tuning....
but then again.... maybe NOT!
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
The Mathematics of it all is loads of fun too........Colin Nicholson wrote: I could even bore you all to tears with all the physics behind ET and non ET tuning....
but then again.... maybe NOT!
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Barrie Heaton »
move over and pore one out for me Did you you to fall asleep in Tuning theory classes as wellGill the Piano wrote:Mathematics is NEVER fun and if you start all that I shall have to Lie Down In A Darkened Room. With a pint of Rebellion, of course...
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Gill the Piano »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Colin Nicholson »
PTA's convention in May 2012, covers a lecture on "Early Temperament Tunings"
http://www.pianotuner.org.uk/pta6.htm
dont know if you have to be PTA though? .... but worth a try.
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
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Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Re: Should I ask for an unequal temperament?
You don't have to be PTA but you do have to be in the trade.Colin Nicholson wrote:Might be of interest to some......
PTA's convention in May 2012, covers a lecture on "Early Temperament Tunings"
http://www.pianotuner.org.uk/pta6.htm
dont know if you have to be PTA though? .... but worth a try.
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