left hand extended cords
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano
left hand extended cords
I've read to play extended left hand chords add needed notes to right hand but won't that mess up the treble cleff playing?
Fake book extended chords
Not enough fingers to do an extended chord and if I use the right hand to add notes,how do I play the melody,bear with me please,I sound mixed up even to me.
Okay, I understand what you're getting at now. It sounds like you're making a very common mistake when people come to extended chords for the first time, that is by simply stacking up chords and their extensions.
As you'll know Cmaj7 would be: C, E, G, B
As you move up through the maj9, maj11 and maj13 chords, you would think that you simply add on the necessary voicing, e.g. Cmaj9: C, E, G, B, D.
This isn't technically wrong, but when you come to Cmaj13, you hit a problem, i.e. Cmaj13: C, E, G, B, D, F, A
Theoretically, you are going to need seven fingers to play a 13th chord. In practice however, extended chords do not typically use all the chord members; when there are no added, flattened or sharpened variatons of the extended chords, the fifth is often omitted, as are notes between the seventh and the highest note. Specifically, the ninth is often omitted in an eleventh chord; the ninth and eleventh are usually omitted in a thirteenth chord.
So, bearing all this in mind, the Cmaj13 could be voiced as: C, E, B, A. Obviously C to that high A is too big a stretch, so you can stick the A on the bottom of the chord so that it looks like this: A, C, E, B. Immediately, you can see how an extended chord can easily be voiced using only one hand without the need to burden the right hand. This is how jazz/blues/gospel artists can use these chord and solo with their right hand. Any other way would make it impossible and, as you rightly say, it would also mess up the melody on the right hand.
It is a weird approach that you couldn't really get away with in simple major and minor chords - they are too closely voiced and small for omissions to go unnoticed.
As you'll know Cmaj7 would be: C, E, G, B
As you move up through the maj9, maj11 and maj13 chords, you would think that you simply add on the necessary voicing, e.g. Cmaj9: C, E, G, B, D.
This isn't technically wrong, but when you come to Cmaj13, you hit a problem, i.e. Cmaj13: C, E, G, B, D, F, A
Theoretically, you are going to need seven fingers to play a 13th chord. In practice however, extended chords do not typically use all the chord members; when there are no added, flattened or sharpened variatons of the extended chords, the fifth is often omitted, as are notes between the seventh and the highest note. Specifically, the ninth is often omitted in an eleventh chord; the ninth and eleventh are usually omitted in a thirteenth chord.
So, bearing all this in mind, the Cmaj13 could be voiced as: C, E, B, A. Obviously C to that high A is too big a stretch, so you can stick the A on the bottom of the chord so that it looks like this: A, C, E, B. Immediately, you can see how an extended chord can easily be voiced using only one hand without the need to burden the right hand. This is how jazz/blues/gospel artists can use these chord and solo with their right hand. Any other way would make it impossible and, as you rightly say, it would also mess up the melody on the right hand.
It is a weird approach that you couldn't really get away with in simple major and minor chords - they are too closely voiced and small for omissions to go unnoticed.
you can omit the 5th, if that helps... lets say you're playing an f maj in the left hand and an 'a' in the right, you could play an fmaj7 chord (f,a,c,e), 4 notes, yet the melody is already playing the 'a', omit the 5th (the 'c'), the left hand just plays f and all the right plays is 'e' and 'a'; three notes in all to create a 4note chord...
to make matters more confusing, jazz pianists often omit the root as well... dont worry about this for now though but just to give you an idea, play the 'a' in the right hand and in the left hand play 'a','d' and 'g' (starting on the 'a' just below middle c play)... this would be how a jazz pianist would probably play that very same chord (known as modal fourths)
by the way, i would have to disagree with marky mark over one particular example he used, he referred to a c maj 13 as "c,e,g,b,d,f,a", i would class that as a c sus (maj13); to me c maj 13 is "c,e,g,b,d,a"
to make matters more confusing, jazz pianists often omit the root as well... dont worry about this for now though but just to give you an idea, play the 'a' in the right hand and in the left hand play 'a','d' and 'g' (starting on the 'a' just below middle c play)... this would be how a jazz pianist would probably play that very same chord (known as modal fourths)
by the way, i would have to disagree with marky mark over one particular example he used, he referred to a c maj 13 as "c,e,g,b,d,f,a", i would class that as a c sus (maj13); to me c maj 13 is "c,e,g,b,d,a"
I spend a lot of time when writing posts to make sure what I'm saying is not inaccurate or casual in anyway - did you read the whole post? If you're going to quote me, at least don't try to sum up what I'm saying by referring to an isolated, out-of-context phrase:
Bear in mind, we're also offering advice to a beginner - Jabarr by his own admission is only starting off with these chords and hopefully he will experiment with what sounds best to him as he tries the Cmaj13 with either adding/omitting the 5th and/or 9th (or even the 11th if he really wants). This level of music theory is not an exact science which is why it is so interesting to hear other musician's interpretation of the chords and their variations and alterations.
If you read carefully, you'll see that I'm speaking theoretically in my post for illustrative purposes only and then progress through the options available when moving to the practical, real-life situation.honeyfunk wrote: by the way, i would have to disagree with marky mark over one particular example he used, he referred to a c maj 13 as "c,e,g,b,d,f,a", i would class that as a c sus (maj13); to me c maj 13 is "c,e,g,b,d,a"
Of course you're not going to voice a Cmaj13 like that even if you did have ten fingers on each hand but I'm pointing out the starting point - NOT the end product if for no other reason than it sounds messy. For the record, taking your example, I would definitely lose the 5th and relocate the 13th into the middle of the chord for hand reach, but usually, the 9th would also go, although I like to keep it at times for the dissonance it can cause with the melody. Again, this is a texbook-like explanation and I've altered it to fit my style but what's the point in confusing someone with my personal slant on a Cmaj13 voicing, right?markymark wrote:Okay, I understand what you're getting at now. It sounds like you're making a very common mistake when people come to extended chords for the first time, that is by simply stacking up chords and their extensions.
As you'll know Cmaj7 would be: C, E, G, B
As you move up through the maj9, maj11 and maj13 chords, you would think that you simply add on the necessary voicing, e.g. Cmaj9: C, E, G, B, D.
This isn't technically wrong, but when you come to Cmaj13, you hit a problem, i.e. Cmaj13: C, E, G, B, D, F, A
Theoretically, you are going to need seven fingers to play a 13th chord. In practice however, extended chords do not typically use all the chord members; when there are no added, flattened or sharpened variatons of the extended chords, the fifth is often omitted, as are notes between the seventh and the highest note. Specifically, the ninth is often omitted in an eleventh chord; the ninth and eleventh are usually omitted in a thirteenth chord
Bear in mind, we're also offering advice to a beginner - Jabarr by his own admission is only starting off with these chords and hopefully he will experiment with what sounds best to him as he tries the Cmaj13 with either adding/omitting the 5th and/or 9th (or even the 11th if he really wants). This level of music theory is not an exact science which is why it is so interesting to hear other musician's interpretation of the chords and their variations and alterations.
For Jabarr's benefit, I think I need to highlight that this is only an opinion. While I will emphasise that, technically, what I've said is correct - you can check any textbook/website for the initial basic structure of a thirteenth chord - Honeyfunk's version (c,e,g,b,d,a) sounds better and as such, some musicians would push this as the authorised/official version of Cmaj13. From a theory-based stance, inserting F is not wrong.honeyfunk wrote: by the way, i would have to disagree with marky mark over one particular example he used, he referred to a c maj 13 as "c,e,g,b,d,f,a", i would class that as a c sus (maj13); to me c maj 13 is "c,e,g,b,d,a"
As I mentioned, you can add/omit some or all of the following tones in a maj13th chord: the 5th, 9th and 11th. Honeyfunk's version has opted to omit the 11th only and that is still fine.
This is a sticky topic and depending on who you talk to, you will notice an emphasis on a preferred version that matches that person's own style or comfort-zone and not so much the standard, legal version I alluded to in passing, so don't let this confuse you too much Jabarr!
i agree with everything you said, just not the 13th chord, however, you seem experienced and knowledgeable with music so i think it's good for "neewbies" to see that even teachers cant agree on certain principles.
i remember reading once that a 13th chord includes an 11th in classical muisic but not jazz and pop, i have no idea if this is true, the 13th chord is the most ambiguous chord in music so its only fair we have a small disagreement.... if what you're saying is right though, how would you play a c maj 13 (sus)?
one final note, one chord that has really annoyed me is the min6 chord; technically this is wrong, the minor chord gets its tones from the minor scale not the major one, therefore, a c min6 should be c, eb, g, ab not c, eb, g, a... technically, this is a c min (maj6) chord.... though i have never seen one book that preaches this
i remember reading once that a 13th chord includes an 11th in classical muisic but not jazz and pop, i have no idea if this is true, the 13th chord is the most ambiguous chord in music so its only fair we have a small disagreement.... if what you're saying is right though, how would you play a c maj 13 (sus)?
one final note, one chord that has really annoyed me is the min6 chord; technically this is wrong, the minor chord gets its tones from the minor scale not the major one, therefore, a c min6 should be c, eb, g, ab not c, eb, g, a... technically, this is a c min (maj6) chord.... though i have never seen one book that preaches this
I remember reading somewhere that suspended chords must not have a major third on them, but yet jazz musicians WILL include it in suspended chords if the player wants to add some dissonance.
For start then, the E would be missing and the sus (or 11th) could be moved down to use c,f,g,b,d,a as the building blocks. Again, I suppose 9th and 5th could go too in-keeping with the flexible theory attached to the maj13th chords.
For start then, the E would be missing and the sus (or 11th) could be moved down to use c,f,g,b,d,a as the building blocks. Again, I suppose 9th and 5th could go too in-keeping with the flexible theory attached to the maj13th chords.
Extended Chords
Good Morning
As a new member of the forums may I add something to the subject of Extended Chords (very interesting reading, may I say)
The piano arrangements by LOU STEIN of popular standard tunes give a super illustration of how the chord symbols compares with the actually notation. My students LOVE them. Fabulous harmonic treatment while retaining the melody (perhaps a few diversions in this department)
Treble and bass clef plus chord symbols some of which look like quadratic equations.
There are books of these available, but many of them are to be found on "Freehand Music" website and by registering and using a credit card, can be downloaded and printed off.
The number "More Than You Know" in particular is a stunning example......difficult but worth a look
Hope you don't mind me chipping in!
Stephen
As a new member of the forums may I add something to the subject of Extended Chords (very interesting reading, may I say)
The piano arrangements by LOU STEIN of popular standard tunes give a super illustration of how the chord symbols compares with the actually notation. My students LOVE them. Fabulous harmonic treatment while retaining the melody (perhaps a few diversions in this department)
Treble and bass clef plus chord symbols some of which look like quadratic equations.
There are books of these available, but many of them are to be found on "Freehand Music" website and by registering and using a credit card, can be downloaded and printed off.
The number "More Than You Know" in particular is a stunning example......difficult but worth a look
Hope you don't mind me chipping in!
Stephen
Full time private music teacher on the Fylde Coast - piano and organ.