Upgrade from Welmar

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 21 Jan 2004, 20:26

I currently own a Welmar upright C 1980 vintage, which has served me well for a few years, I'm looking to upgrade the piano to something noticeably better, e.g. one of the well known German makes, again an upright.
According to another forum the Welmar is a 4 star piano, with the only better rated makes (5 or 6 star)being Bosendorfer, Steinway, some Kawai and Yamaha models, Forster, Schimmell, Bluthner, Mason and Hamlin, Bechstein, Knabe and perhaps a few others.
Do I have to fork out say &6000+ for a S/H Steinway or Bluthner, I'm not really keen on Yamaha pianos and have never heard Kawai or Boston.

What would anyone recommend, I don't want a piano that is older than say 1930 vintage.

I notice that someone is trying to sell a Bechstein 9 for less than &2000, whereas a dealer seems to be charging over &4000 for the same thing (i.e. reconned).

If a dealer is charging say &6000 for a quality s/h upright what woul be a reasonable private deal.

I know it ultimately comes down to the sound that the purchaser likes but what makes/models/vintages should I look for.

thanks & Regards
Richard

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Jan 2004, 22:14

If you don’t like Yamahas then you will not be happy with a Kawai, Bostons are made by Kawai for Steinway the tone is a little softer that a Kawai or Yamahas

The top of the range of Schimmel are nice but pricey, Bluthners start at 15,000 for the uprights but again they are nice a visit to the Bluthner show room in London they have some secondhand pianos you could look at the Haessler range made by Bluthner they start at 9k new One to give a look at is the Kemble K131 Based on Quantum piano (the only difference from the Quantum is the case) it was judged top of its class and praised for its tonal excellence by Le Diapaison magazine and the only ones that came close were twice the price.

On secondhand pianos some of the Bechstein in the trade section have been fully restored so you can’t compare this
http://www.uk-piano.org/pianos-for-sale ... siteid=286
with this
http://www.uk-piano.org/used-pianos-for ... siteid=490

one comes with a 5 year guarantee and the other you don’t know when the pianos was restored. When pianos are over 35 years old and of the same make you can’t compare them with out sitting in front of them and getting a detailed report before parting with money. As to the price the only factor is can I afford it you just can't compare prices on second-hand pianos.

This also goes for the term “fully reconditioned” I have been to pianos that were advertised as “fully reconditioned” and all they had done to them was the hammer were refaced and a new set of tapes in my book that is just titivation

Mason and Hamlin are made in the US so you will not find many if any in the UK

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 22 Jan 2004, 00:22

thanks Barrie for the very prompt reply! and the good advice

Yes I do hope to find a private bargain but as you say I will find out when the piano was last recond. (if old) and (unless it is less than 10 years old) get a full report from a restorer
of course some pianos from the trade have had minimal restoration if good in the first place, the trade also has to make up to 100% profit to survive given the slow movement of stock and the large showrooms required
regarding the s/h private bechsteins, the two I have seen have been supposedly restored within the last 15 years (I would get that claim checked by a restorer/expert) if so what is the problem!?
My feeling is that there must be many great pianos lying dormant in people's homes, that are not used or appreciated, even god forbid a nearly new steinway or bosendorfer gathering the dust for which a dealer would offer a derisory sum for cash.

yes I hesitated to type mason and hamlin as these don't exist outside of NY NY

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Jan 2004, 02:06

richarddale wrote: My feeling is that there must be many great pianos lying dormant in people's homes, that are not used or appreciated, even god forbid a nearly new steinway or bosendorfer gathering the dust for which a dealer would offer a derisory sum for cash.

The best place to pick up a cheep Steinways are schools the trick is to get one with nice case then send it to Steinway, Bluthner or one of the big rebuilding shops and have a full rebuild including a new sound board 10 to 15 K – they are also doing a nice job in Poland for 6 to 8K in affect you end up with a new S&S at a fraction of the cost

Barre,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 22 Jan 2004, 14:12

think I might go for this kind of thing

http://www.pianos.co.uk/pianodetails/u004498

1975 Steinway
(I'd have it checked out to ensure that it hasn't been hammered to death 8 hours a day by a professional pianist)

or this

http://www.pianos.co.uk/pianodetails/u004141

1986 Bosendorfer

ALternatively I may find a good restorer who can rebuild a piano for me.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Jan 2004, 19:03

Myself I prefer a Bosendorfer uprights over a Steinway any day, Piano Workshop also advertise it on this site as well

http://www.uk-piano.org/pianos-for-sale ... siteid=138

and it comes with a 5 year guarantee.

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 22 Jan 2004, 21:21

I note it is a smaller piano, 120 as opposed to 130/1 is it, does that make a lot of difference, presumably it does otherwise they wouldn't bother to make them

cheers
Richard

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Jan 2004, 21:42

The taller the piano the better the bass we coved this in http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... .php?t=327

However, when you are taking secondhand some of the rules tend to go out of the window. I have seen small pianos with better basses than some large ones all depends on the age as Bass string get tired and tubby but that 10cm can make the difrence from OK bass to WOW nice sound but again most6 may not notice it.

Barrie,

Post by **Melodytune** » 25 Jan 2004, 23:39

Barrie Heaton wrote:Myself I prefer a Bosendorfer uprights over a Steinway any day, Piano Workshop also advertise it on this site as well

http://www.uk-piano.org/pianos-for-sale ... siteid=138

and it comes with a 5 year guarantee.

Barrie,

Glad I'm not the only one to prefer Bosendorfer uprights then.

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 26 Jan 2004, 19:08

OK find me a Boz upright for sale second hand, 131 cm

think that is a model 120 = 120 cms?

cheers

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 26 Jan 2004, 19:34

That is it the big problem finding a second-hand Bosendorfer 130 CL piano at a price you can afford and at a place you can go and view and play it, you could put an ad in pianos wanted

You could try making Piano Workshop an offer I would go and try it you may love it

Barrei,

Post by **Melodytune** » 26 Jan 2004, 19:57

Extremely rare that I come accross them second hand; these pianos truly hold their value. Best of luck.

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 26 Jan 2004, 23:15

I suppose this might be it, a little more than I wanted to pay

http://www.pianos.co.uk/pianodetails/u004762

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 27 Jan 2004, 08:37

Well the piano has been there for 6 months if is it still for sale make them an offer

Barrie

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 01 Feb 2004, 14:30

Visited Reigate piano workshops, this is what I found

Bosendorfer upright 1986 121, brilliant action, harsh sound, could not live with this at all
1920 Steinway vertegrande, nice piano but sounds a bit dated, don't really want a piano quite this old, but maybe the best upright in the shop, but quite large
Yamaha U1s and U3s - aaaaaarrghh! quite the most appalling sounding pianos I've ever heard (except Korean) , these were all c1975 examples and not aging well, not very nice to look inside, sound more like electric pianos
Older Bechsteins c 1910 - bit honky tonk
Piano like mine for sale slightly newer (welmar) for &2650, asked dealer what he would give me for p/ex using that as an example, said &1K off new piano
so like a car dealer he is making twice, both on the p/ex and the main purchase
A couple of Korean pianos - quite shocking
Some English makes - OK
I would take issue with the description totally restored, most of the pianos in the showroom had the minimum amount of restoration done, none of the older pianos were completely rebuilt inside, the newer pianos had nothing done to them
We looked inside the Steinway and asked the guy how much the (partial) restoration had cost, he itemised the jobs which quite franky were not expensive, I think less than &2000 had been spent on it also all of the parts are available on Steinways.
What I might do is look for an older classy piano privately that needs a certain amount of restoration but not complete rebuild, get it checked over (report done) and get an idea of what needs doing
then negotiate a price accordingly
I would get the Reigate workshop (or other recommended place) to do the work, then while that is being done sell mine privately for somewhere between &1000 trade in price and say &2250 retail price, will get a report done on it by a piano expert for the potential buyer

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 01 Feb 2004, 16:07

richarddale wrote: What I might do is look for an older classy piano privately that needs a certain amount of restoration but not complete rebuild, get it checked over (report done) and get an idea of what needs doing
then negotiate a price accordingly
I would get the Reigate workshop (or other recommended place) to do the work, then while that is being done sell mine privately for somewhere between &1000 trade in price and say &2250 retail price, will get a report done on it by a piano expert for the potential buyer

You are obviously a person who knows what type of sound you are looking for in a piano. However, buying a piano and having it restored will alter the sound drastically if the strings or hammers are changed the piano will have to be toned to your preference and this takes a few visits form the tech – now with that in mind you liked the Bosendorfer 121 uprights action but not the sound, why not ask if the hammers can be refaced and the piano toned down you may then love it.

It is always better to start with a piano that the client likes than have to alter a piano so it is pleasing to the ear.

I have replace lots of hammers over the years and know the problems they cause on older pianos lost of toneing down is needed in particular Bluthners which has a softer over all tone than the other top of the range pianos

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 01 Feb 2004, 23:36

Bernie thanks, its getting more and more complicated, I had assumed that piano makes tend to have a "house" sound, e.g welmars tend to sound like this, yamahas like that, all other things being equal
I would like to obtain at the lowest cost a piano of a make of which I like the typical sound, obviously if its older I would want it restored as much as it needs to be
I am not a piano techician but its relatively easy to compare the sound quality of various makes even for someone who knows nothing about how this sound is produced (like choosing a quality hi fi)
obviously the condition of the piano is all important, I thought that a Steinway restored would sound like the piano would have sounded new at the time it was first built, e.g. a completely restored 1931 steinway with all its guts replaced would sound as it came out the factory in 1931, am I right

regarding bluthners would it be best to avoid pianos made under the communist era

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 02 Feb 2004, 22:03

richarddale wrote:Bernie thanks, its getting more and more complicated, I had assumed that piano makes tend to have a "house" sound, e.g welmars tend to sound like this, yamahas like that, all other things being equal

New house pianos do follow a theme Yamahas tend to be bright Bluthners are softer so on and so on. However, you can line up 10 new U1s and they are all different and more so for the hand finished pianos like S&S

richarddale wrote: I thought that a Steinway restored would sound like the piano would have sounded new at the time it was first built, e.g. a completely restored 1931 steinway with all its guts replaced would sound as it came out the factory in 1931, am I right

No way…….. It will sound something close to a new one but never like they use to sound when new – Parts use play a big part in the way a pianos sounds take the hammers S&S use to use felt from the Royal George Factory that is no longer there the wood for the soundboards are from a different forest the strings are made of a more purer metal they Guy who fitted up the action and shaped the hammers is long dead Renner make kits with small variations on parts so you can try and recreate the sound you want restoring a piano is not like changing parts on a car your are using felt and wood which have distinctive characteristics and then there is the skill of the person fitting them

richarddale wrote: regarding bluthners would it be best to avoid pianos made under the communist era

That was true 10 year ago for a lot of makes from the former East Germany However, it is not the case for Bluthneers the quality remained because the Bluthner family was allowed to run the factory and still do.

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 03 Feb 2004, 15:02

and then there is the skill of the person fitting them

yes quite a lot of factors to take into consideration

do you recommend a restorer in the Sussex Surrey area, I have come across a Simon Gray (of Newdigate) who used to tune my piano, but now seems unobtainable

cheers

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 03 Feb 2004, 19:14

All depends on what you are restoring in no particular order:

http://www.caradine.co.uk/
http://www.bluthner-piano.co.uk/work-shop/index.html

vay older painos

http://www.squarepiano.co.uk/
http://www.uk-piano.org/broadwood/index.html

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 04 Feb 2004, 17:17

somebody mentioned the K131, I've been trying to find a stockist in the Surrey Sussex area, have contacted Kemble but they didn't send me the list (only brochures). I presume I'd have to buy it new, as there are few examples on the second hand market.
Has anyone compared this to the Yamahas which they also make, does the K131 sound like a Yamaha (whether European or Japanese), if so I won't bother trying it.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 04 Feb 2004, 18:47

Chapells of Bond Street should stock them since it is owned by Kembles

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 08 Feb 2004, 23:51

went to Horsham piano centre to try the Kemble K131, unfortunately it was out of tune, but sounded nicer than the Yamaha or Kawai, but will revisit when tuned up
BTW the Kawai equivalent of the U3 was IMO much better, though I wouldn't buy a Jap piano

some newer welmars were not a patch on mine (1978) but unfortunately due to the demise of the company my piano is worth less as there are newer examples at cut down prices) they sound crappy but to a purchaser they are new

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 09 Feb 2004, 10:58

You are aware the Yamaha owns 40% + of Kembles and quite a few of the parts used in a Kemble come for Yamaha However, the Kemble family still run the place and they only choose the better bits from Yamaha

It is a sad fact that the Welmars that came out of the factory at Woodchester were a disappointment in fact some were vary badly made

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 09 Feb 2004, 21:02

It is a sad fact that the Welmars that came out of the factory at Woodchester

for future ref. in what years were Welmar pianos made at Woodchester, so that I can persuade potential buyers to avoid them and buy mine!

Cheers
Richard

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 09 Feb 2004, 21:27

14 July 2000 was the official press release of the merger between Whelpdale Maxwell & Cod Ltd, London and Woodchester Pianos Stroud., but it was later in the year when production moved over The new company was called "The British Piano Manufacturing Company Ltd, and put together pianos with the names of:
Rogers, Hopkinson, Gerh, Stinberg, Lipp, Zender *Broadwood, Bentley, Knight, Welmar, Woodchester and Sir Herbert Marshall

They only made a few Broadwood not to be confused with Ladbrooks Pianos who produce the Broadwood, Steel Barless upright piano.

Barrie,

richarddale · Post by **richarddale** » 22 Feb 2004, 23:38

i am gravitating towards a new K131, has anyone got any reviews

Mitch6711 · Post by **Mitch6711** » 12 Jun 2007, 18:00

Hi, I've got a Welmar piano with a Renner action, one of a number of limited editions made around 1997 for Harrods. Any ideas about how much it might be worth?