Can a piano be untunable?

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BroccoliJack
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Can a piano be untunable?

Post by BroccoliJack »

Hi all. Think the title says it - I know very little about pianos.

I run a small community music night and we have managed to get our hands on a piano. I have transported it to the venue, and all seems to be well, but...

After speaking to a few people, they think that it is so badly out of tune that it may not even be possible to tune up to concert pitch. I will get a professional tuner to tune it, but I am concerned about spending what little money we have on a tuner without knowing if it can be tuned. Would any of you mind having a look/listen of the video I have uploaded and letting me know your opinion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSfI4UxbYrU

I imagine no-one could make a proper evaluation via video, but thought it might explain the extent of the out-of-tune-ness!

Any advice any of you could offer would be greatly appreciated. The piano bears the name "Osbert" and the telephone numbers on the labels suggest this piano is at least 50 years old.

PS - I know the labelling of the keys is wrong - it wasn't me, I promise!
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: Can a piano be untunable?

Post by Colin Nicholson »

By the looks of the mechanism (overdamped), it will probably be nearer 100 years old..... and possibly previously condemned by a piano tuner.

Was it free to a good home?

The pitch sounds quite near to 'Concert Pitch' in places .... but certain strings from the tri-chords are well over a tone flat. From around F below middle C (the moving upwards to the right), the strings progress from being bass strings to steel wire - three wires per note.... so eg. Middle C is tuned 3 times.... 1. left string 2 Middle string 3. Right string.

It is likely that there is a crack in the wrest plank.... and the pins running in line with the crack will alternate between being tight, slack, tight, slack and so on (the pins are zig-zag to reduce stress). So it only takes one of those three strings to 'hit' the crack..... and usually it cant be tuned. You may find one or two notes sounding Okish (but still out of tune).... then a howler.... this is where the crack has affected on of those 3 pins. A piano tuner sometimes indicates this to their customer by marking the pins with white chalk.

I guess that even any attempts at tuning this may result in the tuning lever whizzing back down, so lots of knocking-in pins (so it will sound like an Ikea wardrobe being assembled).... but a tuner will be able to assess it straight away. The pins may grip slightly if knocked in, but this may cause more damage and widen the crack inside. The wrest plank is the large expanse of wood you see at the top, where the pins are driven in, and you wont see the crack - it'll be deep inside. The wrest plank (maple) is laminated and over 3" in thickness (a tuning pin is approx 60mm in length) - you only see a 3rd of it.

Regrettably.... many pianos like this, I turn away.... but you may still be charged a call-out fee. Damage like this often caused by central heating and the piano being kept near a hot radiator.

Personally, I would suggest hire or buy a digital piano if concert pitch matters.

Oh yes, there are many 'untunable' pianos in the world. This one may join the queue.
Some of the pins will need to be knocked in (using a special tool), and may 'hold' their pitch for a short period of time, but because its so long since it was tuned, any encounter of a tuning may only last a few days.... and if a pin decides to 'give up the ghost' ...... time to look for another piano.

If this is tuneable, I would suspect that IF the tuner attempted a tuning, it may well go into a couple of hours.... I charge around £60 for this kind of work, and its never guaranteed. Call out only may be slightly cheaper.

Hope that helps...
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Re: Can a piano be untunable?

Post by Colin Nicholson »

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... 54&p=42282

The above link is a similar problem on another piano - cracked wrest plank (posted May 2011). This shows the cracks in full view as they have exposed themselves at the front of the wrest plank.... but many have hidden cracks in the middle or at the rear.

On modern and new upright pianos nowadays, the wrest plank is completely covered and protected from the 'elements' with cast iron, and the tuning pins pass through pre-drilled holes in the cast iron before embedding themselves into the wrest plank.

In most cases like this, replacing a wrest plank or carrying out pintite repairs (inverting piano and using a syringe, injecting a special liquid into the holes to swell the wood).... are uneconomical for very old pianos......
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maxim_tuner
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Re: Can a piano be untunable?

Post by maxim_tuner »

BroccoliJack wrote:I run a small community music night and we have managed to get our hands on a piano. I have transported it to the venue, and all seems to be well, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSfI4UxbYrU
I may be wrong, but your piano don't need tuning. It's need fundamental and costly repair work. May be replacing the pins, and possibly the replacing pinbloock is very the expensive operation.
Yours maxim_tuner_bodger
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Re: Can a piano be untunable?

Post by Colin Nicholson »

Regrettably many posts like this (and this one being no exception) are usually not answered, and a new member who has purchased (or being given away) a piano and they are a first-time buyer. Often is the case, just seeing a piano to them is an investment, and owning one and having it standing proud in a hall/ community establishment is a great talking point.... however rarely does anyone seek expert advice before having it moved (even if the piano is free).

Even if (for the sake of argument) the tuning pins were replaced with a larger pin for just the offending notes, then there are still implications here. Loosening off the tension on a 100 year old string (and releasing its rust & corrosion) usually results in the string breaking near the coil.... however if the string survives that part, then by wrapping the new pin around the old string - then whizzing up the tension back up to concert pitch...... PING! ...... it will more or less break during that stage, so then further costs are needed for a new looped string (as on most pianos like this, one piece of wire serves as 2 strings) - so 2 pins are now needed. Even if someone fitted a new string & pin, then tuning it with "the octave" .... UGH!!.... never works.

If no other piano can be arranged, then I would attempt to temporarily 'hold' the pitch of the loose strings & pins by tapping them in slightly - just enough for the pin to grip.... and leave it at that. The tuning may last an evening, who knows?

Just wondered if you have ever tried to fit new damper felt to an over-damped piano? .... there are many problems that lie ahead, and if you start re-stringing something like this, you will never have a social life!

The wrest plank (pin block) will be part of the integral structure of the piano, and it cannot be removed without causing damage. I once was asked to get a quote for a wrest plank replacement for a Bechstein upright Model 10.... the action was in reasonable condition for its age, but it wouldn't hold its tune.... and after I was quoted in the region of £2K ...... no more was said. The Bechstein was obtained on FreeCycle (sounds lucky!).... but obviously was free for a good reason. Since then, I used some pin tite.... and it has helped marginally, but who knows how long it will last. So for an old "heirloomless" piano, and having all of the deadly sins.... a definite NO NO regards to a wrest plank replacement.

Sometimes the member may offer the name of the piano to us, but in some cases, the piano is unknown - perhaps in a desperate attempt to obtain similar information for a similarly named piano we have come across in our travels. Then we have the embarrassing task of "breaking the news gently" .... and I know, many ignore our advice (that has maybe taken over an hour to type!).... and the member may look elsewhere for the same information - and that there may be a slight glimmer of hope that "all is good"..... of course, we never just make stuff up, nor create a sinario, all words that I express are from my own personal experiences, and are true in every sense. However, it would be nice to hear if anything has developed - i.e. has a tuner come out to look at the piano, and I guess - probably uttered a few humble words, and then picked his/her tuning case, charged about £40, and off they go .... piano still standing there un-tuned? .....
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Re: Can a piano be untunable?

Post by pianotechman »

Or a client tells you that you are the tenth tuner he has engaged.....well the other nine couldn't have all been hopeless, so there must be something wrong with the tuning plank? logical.
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