J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

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southbayphoto
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J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by southbayphoto »

Hello all!

I was hoping for a little help with some identification of this piano before I made the possible purchase of it. All the lady could currently tell me is that it is a "Burle Tigers Eye Wood Antique Piano" shipped from England with the candelabras and stool. Of course looking at the pictures, I can see that it is shown as a J.B. Cramer & Co. upright piano. My wife thinks it is an interesting piece, especially since it has the candelabras on it. We haven't seen it in person as of yet (hoping to on Saturday), but below are the pictures we have seen of it so far. Also, it appears that in the 5th picture, it shows the number: 16591. I'm guessing that is the serial number of this piano. I haven't been able to find out much online except that in 1900 it appeared that the serial numbers started around 30675 or so. So, my guess is this piano may be made around an 1890 to 1892? I don't know. Maybe someone here does?

Question, is this considered an "Upright Grand" piano? (greater than 52" tall) I've read that those are very hard to have tuned and aren't worth buying (plus no resale value later). I will try and measure it when I go to see it on Saturday, but I thought I'd ask first to see if anyone might know. Plus, I noticed that one of the pedals (left one) is missing. How hard is it going to be to have that replaced or to get a proper replacement pedal for that? Where would I even look for such a replacement item? We do have a very good piano store/service establishment in our city that services orchestras and such, so I would probably try them first and have them tune it (if we buy it), but I basically wanted to see if this piano is worth even buying. We are looking at possibly paying US$200,00 (GBP 138,48) for it, so I'm hoping that is a good deal in the condition it appears to be in.

Also, is the wood/finish truly called "Burle Tigers Eye" or is it considered something else? Is there any type of model name or number for this piano? Where would I look to find this info if it is on the piano itself? Does this type of wood make it any rarer than any piano of this era or is that just what they were normally made of? Sorry for the trillions of questions, but I'm just curious. Any help would be truly and greatly appreciated.

Thanks a bunch!
Mat
First picture of piano
First picture of piano
Second picture of piano
Second picture of piano
Fourth picture of piano
Fourth picture of piano
Fifth picture of piano
Fifth picture of piano
Sixth picture of piano
Sixth picture of piano
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Bill Kibby
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Re: Help on piano identification before purchase

Post by Bill Kibby »

Lots of questions, so try not to read this plain text in the wrong tone of voice! Let's start with the fact that this is a Victorian Cottage Piano, a late example of its type from the 1880s, as described at
http://www.pianohistory.info/victorian.html

It represents a stage somewhere between cottage pianos with wooden frames and upright pianos with iron frames. About 1883? The dates published for Cramers numbers are not reliable, some pianos do not correspond to them, including some which are very much in the style of the French Pianino, around the 1870s. The published serial numbers start at 15000 in 1880, and don't seem to be reliable even then. Cramers' Liverpool numbers are different again! For general information about dating pianos by numbers, see
http://www.pianohistory.info/numbers.html

If you want to search inside the piano for clues, see
http://www.pianohistory.info/datemarks.html

I can't tell you if the sconces (projecting candle-holders) are the original ones. The piano was sold by Milsom & Son, Bath after 1881. I am not the best person to ask about types of wood, but just about every single enquiry from the states says it is some kind of burl wood. Bear in mind that these terms for the wood are not from the piano maker.

"Upright Grand" is a meaningless term in most cases, just a way that the makers tried to imply the quality of a grand in an ordinary upright, so if somebody tells you that upright grands are harder to work on, this is rubbish, because there is no definition for "Upright Grand", it is pure hype! Who said they are over 52"?? This is a cottage piano, nearer 46". More info at
http://www.pianohistory.info/edwardian.html

Pedal feet in these are often wooden, and easy to make. Metal ones are obtainable from trade suppliers.

Resale value for unrestored cottage pianos this side of the ocean is non-existent, I have been given a number of them for nothing, and because I am involved in piano history, if you delivered it to my door I might give you twenty pounds - if I had any more space! Nobody anywhere can guess the value or condition of a piano without inspecting it on the spot, and tuning it, because a piano of this age may not hold in tune, and this could involve over a thousand pounds for repairs.
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southbayphoto
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Re: Help on piano identification before purchase

Post by southbayphoto »

Bill,

I wanted to thank you immensely for taking the time to reply to my inquiry about the Cramer & Co. piano in question. I truly appreciate your in depth information and links. I will be looking at them later and reading up more on the information.

I will also provide you with the link to the site where I read the information on the "Upright Grand". I have to leave for a job interview right quick but I wanted to say thank you for all of the information. My wife is even more thrilled knowing it is a Victorian Cottage Piano now. LOL! We aren't really looking at it for resale but she wants something that she can play now and again and she does love older antiques, so that is why she is drawn to it.

I wish I knew if I could replace the one pedal myself (to save on costs) and then have it professionally tuned after pedal replacement but I know absolutely nothing about pianos. My wife knows how to play but nothing about repair and I am normally a do it yourself type of guy so if I could buy the pedal and replace it myself, I would like to. But if I could screw it up by trying to replace it then I would just rather have a piano place replace it when they tune it.

I'll get you that link later today.

Thanks again for all of the great info and reference material!

Mat
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Re: Help on piano identification before purchase

Post by Bill Kibby »

Pedals are usually very simple devices, and I imagine this will be a wooden one, not a ready-made spare part so much as a lump of wood to be cut to match the other one. If you take out the bottom door (the front panel under the keyboard) you may be able to see the existing pedal foot itself, unless it is mounted underneath the piano. As to what it connects to, I would guess it is the type of soft pedal known as a celeste, which raises vertical sticks at either side of the piano, and these in turn raise a strip of wood with a graduated strip of felt.
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southbayphoto
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Re: J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by southbayphoto »

Again, thank you very much for the info, Bill. I greatly appreciate you sharing your vast knowledge. :) It has been very interesting to learn about this piano. We are going to look at it tomorrow afternoon, so we will see what type of condition it really is in. I'm hoping it isn't too bad and all the keys work and such, so hopefully we can replace the one pedal and then have it tuned. My wife has been dying to play again.

Oh and here is the link to the website that mentioned the info about the "Upright Grand". It is at the bottom of this particular page. This is considered the best piano place in our area, but now I'm wondering since you mentioned that their info on this page is unsound. :(

http://www.gistpianocenter.com/used-pianos.php

Again, it is at the very bottom where I read the info that they are hard to tune and are basically junk for resale.

Thank you again for all of your information. I'm going to save and look over the links you provided in the above posts. :)

Take care,
Mat
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Re: J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by Bill Kibby »

I had no idea that the term "Upright Grand" was widely used in the states, I thought it was just another american tuner having a dig at British pianos. This is a very American point of view, and not especially applicable to English pianos, but the over-all message is that antiques should be scrapped, and history destroyed. Why, then, do THOUSANDS of people come to my own website seeking information?
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southbayphoto
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Re: J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by southbayphoto »

Bill,

I agree with you. It didn't make any sense to me and that is why I asked about it on my original post. That is one of the reasons my wife and I are so interested in this particular piano is due to the history and the age of it. I think it is amazing to have something around that is from the 1880's. That is why I'm hoping that it works out and I can purchase it. Personally I think too many people on this side of the pond go for the latest and greatest and forget about history. Since moving to Kentucky, I have to admit that this state definitely holds onto its history and I have been able to see a lot more history of this country since moving to this state and I think it has been wonderful.

Anyway, I didn't meant to go off on a tangent, but I agree with you. That is one of the reasons why we would like to get and preserve this piano, but I also don't want to purchase a broken down piece of junk either. :)
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Re: J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by southbayphoto »

Ok...

We went to see the J.B. Cramer piano today. Here is what we found out:

It looks beautiful. It doesn't seem to be damaged on the outside at all. The one wooden pedal is missing, but we knew that from the pictures and the other pedal, is in fact, wooden.

A couple of the keys stick, but the biggest issue is that a lot of the keys don't work. Meaning that when you press them down, you do not hear a tone/chord played. I don't know if that means the hammer (what strikes the string inside, correct?) is missing or damaged or is the string itself missing. However, the ones that did play sounded like a "wind chime" to me. Even my wife said that. They actually had an older Baby Grand piano that we looked at first (well, played first) and that sounded like a piano to me. Again, I really know nothing about pianos and what they are "supposed" to sound like, but it sounded like a piano (or any one I've ever heard) to me. However, when we played the cottage piano, it sounded almost tinny like a wind chime blowing in the wind. The sound was definitely different from the Baby Grand that we played moments before. My wife was just playing "scales" just to see if the pianos worked.

So, we didn't make any offer on the cottage piano. I'm afraid that because the sound isn't right and especially with a bunch of the keys not working, that it is going to cost a ton of money to get the thing playable. Almost like a full restoration and we don't have that type of money. :( I don't know if a tune would fix the stuck keys and/or the "wind chime" sound of it. Plus, I'm sure if any strings and/or hammers need to be replaced, those would probably cost a lot and if it is one string per key, then that is going to be a lot of strings that need to be replaced. :(

If we had the room in the house, we would have considered the Baby Grand she was selling. It sounded very nice, all the keys worked, but it wasn't as cosmetically as nice as the cottage piano shown above.

So, I guess I'm going to have to try and take a chance with something else that is actually currently playable and just needs a tune.

We are bummed because we really love the look of the piano, but we want it to be playable or there isn't any point in us having it. :(
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Re: J.B.Cramer & Co. Cottage Piano

Post by Bill Kibby »

It's sad for me, but there are so many antique pianos in the world that are just not up to the job, and unless someone finds me a very large museum, I can't collect any more, so thanks for the pictures, they will out-live the instrument I guess.

This one is interesting as the second Cramer cottage I have come across that is later than most Cottage Pianos, but inside, it is a little more modern than it appears.
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