Erard 1864 Grand (Paris) #37668

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Wendy Fenton
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Erard 1864 Grand (Paris) #37668

Post by Wendy Fenton »

Dear Bill
I am in Perth, Western Australia and have an Erard grand piano. From the serial number (37668) I guess that it is Paris-made around 1865-6. I have downsized my home and now cannot accommodate the piano, so will need to pass it on to a new owner. I am not questioning it's monetary value, but would like to know if it has any historical significance before it disappears once again into the bosom of Perth suburbia. I have heard about some terrible crimes perpetrated on such pianos - trying to bring them up to modern pitch, pulling the guts out and inserting an electric piano or, worse still, turning it into a cocktail cabinet!!!
Can you advise if it is worth trying to locate some institution that would be pleased to house this instrument, or if I simply leave it to it's fate? I'm fond of it and it's still rewarding to play (though I prefer pieces by composers who were very familiar with the instrument than things like "Yankee Doodle" - ref: your reply "Erard Grand Piano 12248" on May 21!)
I'll attempt to upload two images for your interest.
Rgards
Wendy Fenton
Attachments
taken with my Philippe Henri Herz Neveu & Cie, which is on loan to the University of WA (who can't house any more grands)
taken with my Philippe Henri Herz Neveu & Cie, which is on loan to the University of WA (who can't house any more grands)
Erard grand - maybe 1865/6
Erard grand - maybe 1865/6
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Bill Kibby
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

This is one of the periods when the published numbers don't quite line up with the dated Erard Paris pianos, and from the photos, I put it nearer 1859, which lines up well with the numbers of dated instruments. A Paris one should be marked with a year in a little oblong to the left of the strings, and I would be interested to know if you find it there. At first glance, I had assumed it was an Erard London piano (particularly the legs) which would involve finding a very different number nearer 7000, as explained at
http://pianohistory.info/numbers.html

I confess I am confused by various conflicting statements about the origin of Erard pianos with just the single name on them. London Erards are dated on the left-hand end of the action, so probably something for your tuner to look for. Here in Britain, unrestored Victorian pianos have very little value, and grands especially struggle to find homes. Museums here are generally overloaded with Victorian pianos. I wish we had space to rescue more of them, but I would begrudgingly admit that cocktail cabinets are marginally better than bonfires. It would be nicer to think it might go somewhere that actually uses it for music!

This piano would have been made to be capable of "modern pitch".

As for the type of music, I have audiences every week enjoying a selection of popular music of that period, but I am not a classical musician. Yankee Doodle is not my cup of tea either, I try not to spend more than a minute on it, if any time at all!
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Wendy Fenton
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wendy Fenton »

Thanks for your information, Bill. I have checked the piano and found what appears to be the date 1866 to the left of the strings, but not in a little oblong - have attached image of this. It also shows the marking SUI 1/2 - is this significant or some tuner's later jotting? I've also attached the 'medal' that is located inside the front lid. Does this help to confirm its origins?
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Erard 'medal'
Erard 'medal'
Possible date mark?
Possible date mark?
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

That's very interesting, although not quite in the standard imprinted form in an oblong, so we can only guess whether it is the manufacturers' mark, or something later, but it isn't going to be too far out. The representation of a medal shows that the piano was made after the 1851 Great Exhibition and 1855 Exposition, as illustrated at
http://pianogen.org/exhibition.html

The absence of any reference to their 1867 medal suggests it is before that date, so "circa 1861" would be a reasonable estimate, regardless of numbers. In the London Exhibition of 1862, Pleyel received a medal, but we have no record so far of any being awarded to Erard.

It is handy, but fairly pointless trying to pinpoint a single year when a piano was made, because the manufacturing process was so long, as described at
http://pianogen.org/datemarks.html

SUI 1/2 is a new one on me, it might be an abbreviation for "suivant" or something, and being handwritten I doubt if it is from the factory. It would be interesting to know any imprinted words or names inside.

It's those London legs that keep bugging me!
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wendy Fenton »

Having looked at a couple of London Erards online, I see your point about the 'London leg! I'll try to take the front plate off and see if there is anything stamped on the LH end of the action.
Interestingly, the legs of my Erard are very similar to the legs of my 1875(-ish) Philippe Henri Herz Neveu & Cie piano which I now have housed at the University of Western Australia (images of the Herz leg and also of two pianos together attached). There are other connections between the two pianos too. The music desk of the Herz is very similar to later Paris Erards I have seen, and Herz patented a spring which was a modification added to Erard's double escapement action and which came into common use, I believe. Of course they were both building pianos in Paris at the same time, so I guess this sort of 'cross pollination' isn't surprising.
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The Herz and Erard pianos in the days when they both lived in my former home
The Herz and Erard pianos in the days when they both lived in my former home
Leg of 1875 Philippe Herz piano
Leg of 1875 Philippe Herz piano
Wendy Fenton
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wendy Fenton »

Sorry, Bill, I've just sent an attachment of my two pianos that is already posted. Please delete the repetition before displaying new post (if you intend to do so).
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

That's alright, we haven't seen the leg before. As far as Erards are concerned, the London grands and uprights tend to have the London legs, whereas the Paris ones tend to be different, and often prettier. Obviously, none of these things are hard and fast rules, and it is not surprising if there is overlap, but it is uncommon. The Herz leg looks like it came from London, although a bit too thick and not quite the shape, and of course, they may well have imported the legs. London legs are illustrated at
http://pianogen.org/victorian.html

There is a somewhat similar Erard 1862 in the Schureck collection, the London number is #7265.
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Wendy Fenton
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wendy Fenton »

I have now found a buyer for my Erard piano, which is wonderful news for me, as he is a professional pianist who will treat it with the respect it deserves. His tuner/restorer friend, who came to inspect it said he didn't think the keys were ivory, but ivorine, which suggests that they were a replacement. Is this likely on an old piano like this? I never suspected they were anything other than ivory, and was surprised at this observation. The keys are fairly visible on the bottom picture. Any thoughts?
Also, would the Erard name inside the lid be inlaid wood or a transfer of some sort? It looks like an inlay to me, and if so, what timber would have been used, please?

Thank you for all your previous information, by the way. It has been very helpful to me.
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Bill Kibby
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

Have a look at my comments on key coverings about three-quarters of the way down the page at
http://pianogen.org/victorian.html
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wendy Fenton »

Thanks, Bill. That's very interesting. Is there any evidence of Erard using "Parkesine" on the later pianos? Mine, being from the 1860s, could qualify for this, I guess.
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

I think I can quote myself as saying that...

"we have no way of knowing which of these materials was used on your piano, unless there is a label somewhere."
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Wimvanm
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Wimvanm »

Hello, your piano was made in december 1864 and sent to Mr. Paling in Melbourne, he was a piano dealer. The legs are neither London or Paris, they are Erard legs until 1874 in which year they change in style.
Your piano is in palissander and is a model 1 which means 2m12 at the time. Kind regards, Wim
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Re: Erard Grand (Paris) c. 1865/6

Post by Bill Kibby »

Thanks for those details, which I presume you researched in the Erard archives. As far as the legs are concerned, these are indeed the same style of hexagonal legs used on thousands of London grand, square and cottage pianos of many different makes between the 1840s and 1880s. They were certainly used on the majority of Erard London grands, and very few of the Paris Erards, which came in a huge variety of shapes, but I can't give you a full list, nobody can. Do the archives describe exactly what every set of legs looked like?
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