Grade 3 Theory

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dave brum
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Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 07 Mar 2015, 20:06

Could someone please tell me whether I've done these two exercises d and e correctly? It is from Grade 3 of 'Music Theory in Practice' and it involves grouping the notes correctly.

Thank You.
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gizzy
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by gizzy » 07 Mar 2015, 23:31

Absolutely correct. Clever David. Gold star!!!

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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 08 Mar 2015, 11:15

Thanks Giz. Piano lesson on Tuesday and I was just a bit unsure of the last two.
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by Colin Nicholson » 09 Mar 2015, 17:52

Hi Dave....

looks good, except for the rest missing in bar 1 (ex e ) .... sorry, the gold star may be stripped... silver now!!

(just amended the ex number)

you only have 9 quaver beats in this bar.... in 12/8 time, you need a dotted crotchet rest after the quaver rests (to make it up to 2 X dotted crotchets), then your dotted minim rest on the 'half bar' mark.

apart from that, spot on!
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 09 Mar 2015, 18:29

Thank you Colin. 12 quaver beats in that bar but implying simple time. 1 quaver note, everything else silent. This is new to me, when I did the g3 book before I didn't even make it to halfway and gave up and this is one page past that.

Gizzy, you are leading me astray and are in urgent need of a slap on the region of your gluteus maximus :o
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by Colin Nicholson » 09 Mar 2015, 18:30

(hope you don't mind me intervening) ....

I've cropped this ex from my own theory notes, just to clarify the quaver beats/ grouping of rests etc.
Although the original extract's rests adds up "mathematically" to 11 quaver rests.... you'll see what I mean on the 'after' version.... easily done to confuse this with 9/8 time....
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 09 Mar 2015, 18:51

It was my own fault as I'd suffered a lapse in concentration. I had thought along the lines of 'a dotted minim rest is 3 beats and I already have the one beat I need to make the 4 beats which is 12/8' (if that makes any sense). I was forgetting to think in DOTTED beats anyway, so a silent bar in 12/8, although written as a semibreve rest, would ACTUALLY be a dotted semibreve rest = 2 dotted minim rests, 4 dotted crotchet rests, 2 dotted crotchet and 1 dotted minim rest etc. The main thing is not to do anything that will imply simple time and to keep all the quavers grouped in 3s rather than 2s.
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by Colin Nicholson » 09 Mar 2015, 19:03

yeh, you are right what you say. These AB books tend to drop you right in at the deep end on last few exercises! (and there is no mention of how to do these in their foreword notes).... most exercises, my lot are fine, except this one.... but you get the odd ex with the spanner in the works. Easy to confuse 12/8 with 4/4, and combining quavers with crotchet 'main' beats. The other thing that can be confusing it that a dotted minim rest doesn't exist in 9/8 time.. even though it's "6 quaver beats" .... you may have heard of the term "each new main beat needs a new rest" ....

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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 09 Mar 2015, 19:27

Colin Nicholson wrote: The other thing that can be confusing it that a dotted minim rest doesn't exist in 9/8 time.. even though it's "6 quaver beats" .... you may have heard of the term "each new main beat needs a new rest" ....
The notes on p21 on MTIP g3 touch on this, Colin. So, would that mean dotted minim rests are only used in 12/8 (and then, for the first 2 or last 2 beats of the four supposing they are silent)?

Talking 9/8 the examples only feature dotted crotchet rests even though in that time dotted minim notes can be used?? Odd!
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by Colin Nicholson » 10 Mar 2015, 01:34

Yeh.... for example, in Claire de lune by Debussy, (9/8 time).... loads of dotted minim notes - some tied, and notes like this have priority to cross over the barrier, but rests are awkward sods and need their "space". The dotted minim rest can only be used for 2 'normal' time signatures (that I know of, both in compound time).... half a bar in 12/8 time (6 quavers), and 6/4 time (compound duple) - half a bar - either end .... (3 crotchets).... 6/4 time is covered in grade 4 theory.... and used in the piece 'Liebestraum' by Liszt if you get a chance to see it.

Need to see my notes, but I think dotted minim rests can also be used for 7/4 time .... when the second half of the bar is silent.... comes under irregular time signatures/ grouping (grade 5 + theory).

Yeh correct....A dotted minim rest can only be used in 12/8 time for either the first or second half of the bar - not in between.... similar to 4/4 time, not allowing quavers to cross the half bar barrier, so if the 2nd & 3rd dotted crotchet "compound" beats are silent, can't use one rest, must be split between 2 dotted crotchet rests. Again, in 12/8 time, there are rules about tying across the mid bar.... it gets quite confusing also to teach!

Like 4/4 time, you can't use a minim rest between the 2nd & 3rd beats.... must be two separate crotchet rests!.... but a minim note can be slapped there instead of rests.... I suppose notes are some almighty God over rests!

If you have any other 'issues' re grouping, let me know.... happy even to mark a whole paper/ page!
(I have detailed files! ) .... :)

It's weird at times teaching 12-13 year olds this subject, they often miss the logic (and say "why Colin?"), but adults tend to be keyed in better and understand the overall logistics/ structure behind grouping or notes & rests and compare grouping like you have done. This is the first time I have shared this info on a forum - GREAT!.... I thought it was ME the geek! .... but I suppose counting the music correctly is also down to the shape of the grouping.

Grouping gets a taj harder, but I think you've more or less nailed in from your understanding & reply here.
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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by gizzy » 10 Mar 2015, 22:47

Colin Nicholson wrote:Hi Dave....

looks good, except for the rest missing in bar 1 (ex e ) .... sorry, the gold star may be stripped... silver now!!

(just amended the ex number)

you only have 9 quaver beats in this bar.... in 12/8 time, you need a dotted crotchet rest after the quaver rests (to make it up to 2 X dotted crotchets), then your dotted minim rest on the 'half bar' mark.

apart from that, spot on!

Oops! I have to say in mitigation that I only worked from the very dark copy as it showed up on my screen and I didn't even see what he'd put in the first bar.

Yes, you're right of course, the rules for dotted things in compound time are just the same as those for the undotted equivalent in simple time. You can't use a minim rest in 3/4 so you wouldn't use a dotted one in 9/8.

Actually, judging by some of the things I wrote well after graduating, this business with minim rests in 3/4 is something that had entirely passed me by till I started teaching it. As indeed had the fact that if one hand wanders on to the other stave there is no rest in the empty stave. And as for the naming of triplets - it took an argument with a pupil who had actually read the book properly for me to realise that each quaver in a group of three comprising a crotchet was not a triplet in its own right, as one of three babies born together would be, but that the triplet is actually the group of three. I don't think a mother who had gone through labour to produce Tom Dick and Harry would be impressed if you told her she'd just had a triplet - she'd say "'ere, wot about the other two?"

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Re: Grade 3 Theory

Post by dave brum » 11 Mar 2015, 11:05

Well, I got full marks in my groupings so thank you again Colin for your help...

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