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Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

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Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Colin Nicholson » 06 Jul 2010, 13:24

Hi everyone - thanks for welcoming me onto this site.

Now then, I'm a touch puzzled over this one!

I am in the final stages of restoring a 1890's (possibly 1895) Carl Mand HUGE upright - its walnut with a wonderful mahogany centre raised carving consisting of leaves, shrubs, rose buds and baroque instruments all tied up with a "carved" ribbon & bow & loads of other carvings. Its over-strung (agraffes in the bass), but over-damped! I have also modified the bass dampers with clip & wedge felt and they work a treat.

The action has bridle tapes and has 'S' shaped jacks with damper-like springs, and bump from behind into a protruding roller (with an adjustable reverse thread on them, small blocks of semicircular wood rolled in leather & graphite). The escapement seems to be guess work, and the hammers furiously rebound from the strings several times. I've set the blow to 47mm and key depth to 10mm - and still having none of it! The action is also screwed to the keyframe & the whole lot slides out like a grand - has anyone come across one? There was once a back-touch/slap rail presumably to stop the keys lifting too high, and its a sticker action with butt plates throughout. Any suggestions would be great!
Oh yeh, and particularly in the middle section, when I play a few notes, the hammers don't reach the strings! - and help would be great
Colin
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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Barrie Heaton » 06 Jul 2010, 21:02

Is there a slap rail if there is, there should be a least 2mm clearance when the hammer is in Check

You say you have changed the dampers is there clearances when the key is down, if there is no play between the damper slap rail and damper when the key is depressed that can act like shallow depth of touch

From what you are saying it look like the extra spring may be the problem I take it it works like the Model 8 . Bechstein action to improve repetition. I have see one a long time a a brass spring that pressed against the slap rail to aid return. to adjust you just push on the spring to weaken and pull to make stronger

Photo would help


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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Colin Nicholson » 07 Jul 2010, 00:56

Cheers Barrie, will upload a pic tomorrow.

I've removed the damper rail so action just working "alone" and still problems,
Did the Model 8 Bechstein have a jack spring that protruded through a hole in the jack? If so, I remember assembling one once, and had to remove neighbouring parts to hook the jack spring through. This is different, and I think the jack spring sits in a groove. I see your point - the jack spring sort of acting as a grand repetition spring? - I'll let you know - cheers again

Photos will follow

Cheers

Colin
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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Colin Nicholson » 07 Jul 2010, 09:54

Hi Barrie

Hopefully these pics may throw some light on it.
Yes, the jack may not have enough clearance when hammer is in check - but then again, most of the hammers don't even check - they don't go back far enough (and aimlessly bounce back).

I also had to remove the jack slap rail as it was loose, and felt eaten! so I rebushed the adjusting screw holes & re-felted it, so maybe not correctly adjusted? I did measure the gap before removal, but it may have changed during assembly.

Anyway, please have a look - and if anything you can see untoward - help is appreciated.

As you can see, the jack spring works just like a damper spring (under-damped) and they work fine.


Mand action.jpg


Colin (I'll also sen a pic of the set off rollers) - didn't realise only 1 pic per post.
Last edited by Colin Nicholson on 07 Jul 2010, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning, repairs & restoration Est. 1981
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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Colin Nicholson » 07 Jul 2010, 09:57

here is a pic of the set off rollers - just started assembling them - they sit behind the jacks, not easily seen when action complete - hope this helps.
Colin

Mand set off rollers.jpg
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Piano tuning, repairs & restoration Est. 1981
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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby vernon » 07 Jul 2010, 23:39

can't really see the set-off"rollers."
Otherwise,I seems like a striaght forward regulating job.
I can't see a problem if done properly in the correct sequence starting with the keys removed.
There's obviously a glaring error in some part of the regulation.
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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Barrie Heaton » 07 Jul 2010, 23:46

Seen lots of these it just replaces the spiral spring quite a light action - Try it at
45mm blow
4mm set off
12 mm checking
10mm depth of touch

There must be more room after the hammer is in check between the Jack slap rail and the jack than a normal slap. Because of the way the set off works with the jack they slide up

As you have changed the check felt, you may have to alter the attack angle of the back check, you have got the nap of the leather running the correct way "up"

The tapes look a bit short but its hard to tell on a photo

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Re: Regulating a Carl Mand Upright???

Postby Colin Nicholson » 08 Jul 2010, 00:02

Thanks for that.
(Vernon) - the set off rollers are behind the jacks, just above where the bend is - yeh, not easy to see.
The "slow motion" movement of the hammer going into set-off is poor on these, and only a few hammers flick back at the set-off point into check.

I think the tape play is OK, the jacks are about 2mm below the notch leather when keys removed.
Keys are 10mm depth of touch - I'll reduce the blow etc and see what happens.

Thanks for your help guys, will plod on 2morrow

Colin
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Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning, repairs & restoration Est. 1981
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
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