Bluthner Model A

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 21 Sep 2008, 21:47

I am looking for a quality upright to take me through Grade 8 and provide years of enjoyment thereafter.

I tried a Bluthner Model A which was typically mellow with delightful quality and a Bechstein Elegance 124, very different, brighter and with a better action. Have also tried Irmler 122, Zimmermann Z1, Schimmel K125, and a number of lower priced options including Yamaha and Kemble.

The Bluthner impressed me most, though at a third of the price I was very surprised just how good the Kemble Mozart 121 performs. Clearly a comparison between these two is a little unfair, but I'm stuck between buy the Kemble and upgrade in a few years as playing improves or buy the Bluthner as a piano for life.

Any advice would be helpful. I'd like a long term, reliable and enjoyable purchase that holds it's value well. Thanks!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Sep 2008, 21:50

The Irmler would be a mistake, but all the others you suggest would be good options. The A is a lovely piano but pricey. Great if you can afford it.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 21 Sep 2008, 22:49

I didn't take to the Irmler at all and found the Schimmel rather disappointing, given it's price. Perhaps I was unlucky with the setup. It was the Kemble Mozart that performed well above expectation and surprised me the most for it's price.

I started out looking for a used Baby Grand but accomodating one would, in reality, be a challenge. So I switched to looking at uprights and was delighted by the Model A. While I would expect a Bluthner to last a hundred years, the Mozart is still tempting at a third of the price.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 21 Sep 2008, 22:59

Go with the Kemble, it will last as long as the Bluthner. How long they last will be dependent on how you look after them ( excluding crapy cheap junk ) Thats a lot of extra money for something that only a bit better.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Sep 2008, 23:07

ennjaydee wrote:I didn't take to the Irmler at all and found the Schimmel rather disappointing, given it's price. Perhaps I was unlucky with the setup. It was the Kemble Mozart that performed well above expectation and surprised me the most for it's price.

Yes.

One of the few pianos to punch above its weight.
The U1 does too in a different way, as does the Perzina 129 and the Zimmermann Z1.

The Mozart is a good choice.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 22 Sep 2008, 06:50

This is quite a big price range you are covering... personally I think your choice may change over the years - and by the time you get to grade 8 - you may choose a completely different sounding piano than today.. Given that I would suggest that you go with one at the cheaper end of the range that has good resale value... so if you like the Kemble - go with that and bank the rest of your budget for an upgrade in the years to come..

I am surprized that the Bechstein Academy was carried by your Bechstein dealer. With the Bechsteins, I have observed a big difference in the tonal quality between two piano of the same model in different dealers - so make sure you play your choice before you buy. I think that the Sauter 122 Masterclass fits into this price range of uprights - anyway keep us informed.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 22 Sep 2008, 07:25

I didn't take to the Irmler at all and found the Schimmel rather disappointing, given it's price. Perhaps I was unlucky with the setup.

As a curiosity - exactly what do you mean by 'setup'... As far as I can tell - the the biggest difference between pianos is tonal - and this has a lot to do with how the piano was voiced at the factory plus the responsiveness of the soundboard, the basic design of the piano, etc etc. The dealers appear to tune the piano, inspect and regulate the action and do minor voicing if needed to even out any irregularities - so it is unclear to me how the Schimmel would change with a 'lucky setup'... In my search - we also tested Schimmels and I also was disappointed - they were not 'bad' sounding - the touch was excellent - but at that price we wanted something a bit more.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Sep 2008, 08:47

crispin wrote: In my search - we also tested Schimmels and I also was disappointed - they were not 'bad' sounding - the touch was excellent - but at that price we wanted something a bit more.

Nicely observed. Very well made pianos and pleasant to tune, but offering very little over a similarly sized Yamaha or Kemble whilst costing a good sight more. They make sense in Germany where they're cheaper.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 22 Sep 2008, 09:04

By setup I mean all of the above, including voicing, intonation and regulation some of which is done at the factory and some final adjustment by the dealer. Every piano is different. I tried two Kemble Conservatoires, each totally different to the other, one very muffled, one over bright, neither as I expected. The Mozart was perfectly between the two, possibly reflecting the additional work put in at the factory on this special edition?

As for the Schimmels, from the C120 through K122 to K125, none gave a performance I was hoping for at the price and like you I was left wanting something more. I would definitely go for a Kemble Mozart over a Schimmel, especially with nearly 3x price delta to a K125.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 22 Sep 2008, 09:27

It's still the Bluthner that I like the most, so any further advice is welcome. What would be your shortlist and how do they stack up in terms of holding their value?

I have not found a Bosendorfer 130 to try although this appears to go up in price again. Nor have I tried a Yamaha SU7 which I see from this forum has positive comments - most Yamahas I tried have been U3s, new ones being much smoother than older ones, but still on the bright side, older ones (3-4,000,000 serial) having poor bass. This leaves a question in my mind over how well Yamahas stand the test of time.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 22 Sep 2008, 11:04

Genaa (a member of this forum) has posted a very detailed search for a quality upright in the US PianoWorld forum... This is certainly worth looking at although he did not try a Bluthner (well I don't think he did)... link below:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/u ... 23314.html

Any piano you buy - it will lose value .. so the cheaper the piano is - the less you will lose. In France/Switzerland the Yamahas are very popular - so I suspect that you will lose a smaller percentage on Yamahas.

I have not had the chance to look at a Bluthner - it was outside my budget - but by all reports this is a top piano... at a top price!

Regarding your story... you state that you want a piano that can take you through to grade 8 ... but you do not state what grade you are on right now... If you have already studied for some years - then trust your judgement and buy the piano of your dreams... but if you in the early years of study - I would worry that your preference may change. There is also this affliction of 'buyer's remorse' - so whatever piano you buy - since it is a major purchase - after the buying you will worry if you have spent your money wisely... make sure that you try out many pianos to minimise this so that you are certain that this is the piano for you.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Sep 2008, 12:05

ennjaydee wrote:It's still the Bluthner that I like the most, so any further advice is welcome. What would be your shortlist and how do they stack up in terms of holding their value?

I have not found a Bosendorfer 130 to try although this appears to go up in price again. Nor have I tried a Yamaha SU7 which I see from this forum has positive comments -

The Bosie 130 is one of my contenders for the World's Best Upright, although it comes at a price. The Blüthner A is also very special. Certainly try the SU7 which has one of the best actions in the business although the sound is less involving than the other contenders here. Probably the most reliable though. Also try Steingraeber 130PS (I think) with the Yamaha action to get a 'best of both worlds' scenario, but for pity's sake stick to a black one or mahogany. German tastes in "Studio Design" beggar belief.

For big thrills on a budget you have the Kemble Mozart, 131, U1 and U3. Also try and seek out a Perzina 129 with Renner equipment. I think Dawson's are the main suppliers, but there maybe dealers near you if they aren't.

No piano is an investment that will hold its price, not even the Bosie or Blüthner but then what is these days? It'll certainly be worth at least the same sort of percentage value than cash in a shite pension fund.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 22 Sep 2008, 12:26

Hi Enjaydee.

Sounds like you are having a wonderful dilemma! I would concur with what Crispin has said and would encourage you to look at Sauters if you are spending that kind of money - the Masterclass instruments are made to a ridiculously fine specification given the extremely good value of their pricing when compared to Bluthner, Bosendorfer and Bechstein. Headingley Pianos in Leeds have a few Sauter uprights on their floor, the Rondo, being closest 'genetically' to the Masterclass, whilst Clement Pianos in Nottingham have a very new secondhand Masterclass 130 (1 year old I believe) that could be an extremely good bargain!

I did try a Bluthner model B on my travels and found it to be overly muted and mellow for my tastes - a lovely piano but not quite living upto expectations. Similarly, the Bechsteins and Bosendorfer 130 I tried were certainly extremely nice, but didn't quite live up to expectation given the very high price tag these command.

Markson's have some exquisite Steingraeber uprights but not a 130. The 138 is a monster of a piano and their 122 was an absolute delight - certainly worth a look just to see these wondeful pianos. More pricey than the Sauter's but probably about the same as the Bluthner you are looking at size for size.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 24 Sep 2008, 19:00

genaa wrote: I did try a Bluthner model B on my travels and found it to be overly muted and mellow for my tastes - a lovely piano but not quite living upto expectations. Similarly, the Bechsteins and Bosendorfer 130 I tried were certainly extremely nice, but didn't quite live up to expectation given the very high price tag these command.

Actually I think the Blüthner A is a more successful design and a better all-rounder than the B. The bigger Blüthners have a wonderful rich bass which can overpower the treble a tad, whereas the smaller A seems to 'fit' the Blüthner sound rather more. Also, the A is probably the most beautifully proportioned model of upright on the market, being that much more petite with the curved fall design. It also wouldn't dominate a room like a 130cm piano can, especially in black! A piano Model B size (131cm) needs a bit more brilliance in the mid and treble in order to support the powerful bass.

As for investment potential, I would reiterate my previous thoughts that no piano should be bought with making money in mind, but point out that lesser-known makes like Sauter, Steingraeber and Seiler are always more difficult to sell privately than the Blüthner, Steinway and Bechsteins of this world, so if you like one of these you'd better make sure you really love it and want to hang on to it for life, because you may have to! I recall a client who bought a 7'-ish Ibach grand because he couldn't quite afford a Steinway. He lost more than 75% of his purchase price when he decided he really wanted a Steinway B.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 24 Sep 2008, 20:18

Interesting reply PianoGuy thank you. I'm off to try Sauter M130 and 122, to compare with the Blu A. I figure from other posts that the Sauter will sound very different with it's unique action. Interesting comments also re saleability of Big 4 compared to lesser known makes. At the end of the day I'll choose the one I like the best and intend to keep it for many years. Hopefully hand it down to my Grand-Children! I'll let you know what I decide!

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 25 Sep 2008, 11:38

Dear Ennjaydee

I am not sure if the Sauter sound is affected by the action - I assume you are thinking about R2 repetition mechanism - however these Sauters have some special sounding board made with wood from special Italian forests. each sounding board has its own serial number.
I was also very impressed with the quality of finish of the Sauters - really at a very high level.
Judging from Genaa description: that the Bluthner he tried was 'mellow' and 'muted' I suspect the Sauter will be the opposite - the ones I have heard have a clear and full sound in my opinion - and this 'fullness' of sound sets these pianos apart

Anyway - do take notes - on your impression on both the 'touch' and 'tone' on your exploration - keep us up to date with your dilemma so we, too, can enjoy your piano shopping.

pianobrereton · Post by **pianobrereton** » 25 Sep 2008, 16:45

Incidentely, the Kemble 121 Mozart was tested in Europe by a team of World renown concert pianists and came second to a Steinway that was 4 times more expensive . Have you tried the conservatoir or the top of the range K132 ? A few of my customers have the conservatoir and the 121 and rave about them . "It plays it's self " said one.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Sep 2008, 21:20

pianobrereton wrote:Incidentely, the Kemble 121 Mozart was tested in Europe by a team of World renown concert pianists and came second to a Steinway that was 4 times more expensive . Have you tried the conservatoir or the top of the range K132 ? A few of my customers have the conservatoir and the 121 and rave about them . "It plays it's self " said one.

Come on matey!

They're U1 and U3s in drag!

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 25 Sep 2008, 22:21

[quote]Incidentely, the Kemble 121 Mozart was tested in Europe by a team of World renown concert pianists and came second to a Steinway that was 4 times more expensive . Have you tried the conservatoir [/quote]

Actually it was the K121 that received the award, in October 2001. The Mozart is a 2006 model which should in theory be one of Kemble's better performers, given it receives "high grade soundboard", "highest grade hammers" and "special final preparation stage of intonation and regulation" according to Kemble's literature. It certainly performed very impressively, but clearly will never allow the sensitivity of play that more expensive models will enable.

I tried two Conservatoires. Both disappointing, as I commented earlier in the thread "each totally different to the other, one very muffled, one over bright, neither as I expected". The Mozart knocked them both for a six. I expect that final intonation and regulation of the Conservatoires could (and should) be improved. I anticipated they would perform at a similar level to, or better than the Mozart. Technically they should be capable of it given similar build spec and larger 124 frame size.

Kemble offer great value for money, but I am seeking something more special.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 26 Sep 2008, 00:58

am interested to know what you think of the Sauter M130 enjaydee? if you are looking for special then I think it certainly fits the bill

ebony sharps, val di fiemme soundboard, brass damper barrels and birdseye maple lined case interior and hammer rests, walnut hammerheads on hornbeam shanks etc etc - it's an instrument crafted to the very highest standards and certainly a cut above many other instruments in the same price range.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2008, 07:37

genaa wrote:am interested to know what you think of the Sauter M130 enjaydee? if you are looking for special then I think it certainly fits the bill ebony sharps, val di fiemme soundboard, brass damper barrels and birdseye maple lined case interior and hammer rests, walnut hammerheads on hornbeam shanks etc etc - it's an instrument crafted to the very highest standards and certainly a cut above many other instruments in the same price range.

This is all very true, but specifications the piano doth not make.

A Fazioli has a wonderful spec and attention to detail, but still manages to have a false top treble and not sound as good as a similarly sized Steinway.

Brass damper barrels are not a great idea apart from looking snazzy, and use of exotic woods where more prosaic ones will do the job just as well is both poncey and a waste of natural resources. Birds-eye maple is a useless wood except in visual appeal. Why pay for all that crap when all it does is make you feel smug? None of it contributes one iota to the sound or playability of that instrument. What it does is add cost to an instrument which is going to depreciate strongly in the first place. Have you ever tried to sell a used Sauter? All the dealers I know who have, have had a hard time doing it.

A Rolls Royce Silver Spirit was beautifully handcrafted with top quality materials but still handled like a cow.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 26 Sep 2008, 08:37

It is very refreshing to have PianoGuy on this forum - excellent technical info and a shot of hardcore reality now and again

So the bottom line is : go and listen to these Sauters - and if you get carried away with the tone and touch - you should be able to cut an excellent deal on this slightly used M130

Looks as if your grandchildren can not lose as the fallback position is a Blüthner A!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 26 Sep 2008, 09:25

hehe up to your usual visceral standards Piano-guy

though i might refrain from feeling overly chastised since last time I looked, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Bechstein and Steinway weren't going out of their way to demonstrate the down-to-earth fundamentals of using recyclable materials of lowest possible cost in the production of their pianos......quite the contrary in fact.

A piano is a luxury item - or can be - and I simply feel that the attention to detail demonstrated in the selection and use of certain materials enhances that - it has nothing to do with being smug.

I am not sure any of the premium manufacturers choose their materials purely to impart a smugness to their owners - might it also be to do with them having been producing instruments for a very long time and choosing certain materials for what they bring to the piano.

I understand in the case of upright pianos that brass damper barrels are used to increase mass, helping to increase damper efficiency, but finding authoritative information outside of being in the trade is hard - I believe the American builder, Del Fandrich, adopted this methodology to improve the upright piano action and tone in comparison to that of the grand. Similarly I believe (again purely as a layman to the extent of the research I have been able to do on the subject) that certain woods are advantageous for hammer heads and shanks because of the properties they have - and not just because they are a scarcer material. My Kawai had mahogany hammerheads and I understand that the Abel hammers in the Sauter are walnut for much the same reasons of relative density etc.

The hammer shanks are graded according to their natural pitch and positioned accordingly, something which again I believe is done to aid the overall tone of the piano.

Fortunately, I haven't purchased one based on the book spec, and I do agree wholeheartedly that spec the piano doth not make

I have however played some, and have to say that the tone and touch is quite simply remarkable. They have a tonal range as broad if not broader than anything else I have heard, sustain that lasts for ever and a purity and clarity, without being thin, that is quite unique. Oh no - I've become a fanboi hehe - but then I guess they have been making instruments since 1819 in the same family so probably know a thing or two worth being fans of

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 26 Sep 2008, 11:05

Genaa

You were looking for ways of dealing with your withdrawal symptoms - maybe you could offer to go and play this M130 and tell us and Ennjaydee how it matches your expectations

- if I understand correctly - you ordered a M130 after playing a Rondo - now is the time to whet your appetite for your new arrival

However I agree that a piano is a luxury item.. and certainly it enhances my pleasure to sit at a piano where great attention has been shown to the details. Given this I question why Bechstein has a label that says: MADE IN GERMANY made using low quality stick on letters... this non-attention to detail does not match the rest of the piano... but maybe PianoGuy is correct in saying that this label is meant to be removed as the providence of the Academy Bechstein line is unclear...

andyaeola · Post by **andyaeola** » 26 Sep 2008, 13:14

Here's my tuppenceworth, I've related my search before, though there's an addition to it.

Whatever anyone says, you have to buy the piano you play and love the sound of.
If you can, go and compare great pianos side by side, or within a few minutes of each other. London is great in this repect. Chappels, Steinway, Bluthner, Jaques Samuel, Marksons and Harrods are within minutes of each other. I visited them a fair few times over a few weeks when searching.

I decided to buy the nicest sounding upright I could find, something that would beckon everytime I entered the room, something that would encourage my kids to learn. I can live with an action less than that of a Fazioli or Stuart. Price or resale value was not in my mind, we’ll pass it on if we ever have space for a grand.

So briefly:
I too think some Kemble/Yamaha’s are good value for money, but they don't move me.
I like the Bechstein concert 8, (and smaller models) though their sound can be slightly thin for my ear.
I too like the warm sweet Bluthner A, but playing a couple of A’s next to a C and three B’s, I had no qualms about choosing the B, a broad, singing & quite balanced sound.
The Steingraber 130 was not appealing, the Steingraeber 138 is a beast of an instrument and though I liked it, didn’t like the imbalance of the huge bass.
The Steinway 132, hmmm, surely overpriced for what it is, the sound is not for me either.
I liked the big Grotrian upright better than the Steinway.
The Schimmel less than the Steinway

My shortlist came down to the Bechsteins and Bluthners (and Ibach which is no longer an option). Note I missed out on the Bosie 130, having phoned around at the time and found nobody had one, and the next delivery into the country would be in a couple of months!

It’s always interesting when people describe the sound (or touch) of pianos. Yamahas are bright? Well possibly, but I’ve heard them described as muffled like someone had put a towel over the strings.
Bluthner mellow? Yes, possibly, but my Mahogany B stands on ceramic tiles where it sings brightly, loud and clear.

What's new? Well I showed my sister round the London dealers last year, tempted her with Bechsteins etc. and she bought ... a black B.

Still no buyers regrets here.

pianobrereton · Post by **pianobrereton** » 26 Sep 2008, 15:34

piano guy wrote;
"Come on matey!
They're U1 and U3s in drag!"
I think we have been here before ! surely it only matters that they are very good pianos and that they are made in England providing a last vital toe hold in piano mass manufacturing. Don't you agree ?
ennjaydee wrote ;
Actually it was the K121 that received the award, in October 2001. The Mozart is a 2006 model which should in theory be one of Kemble's better performers.
This is basically the same piano "K" stands for Kemble and 121 is the case height in metric. As you point out the Mozart is a more refined version, yet the base model won against the steinway and at 4 times cheaper so either one has got to be a bargain. Incidentely the "muffled " Conservatoir you tried might have been badly voiced as i haven't come across any muffled ones . Any way good luck with your piano hunting it will be interesting to see which one you choose.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 26 Sep 2008, 15:55

The Kemble Conservatoire I play regularly also has a disappointingly muffled tone and lacks any richness. In the past I played others that had a similar 'cotton wool' sound and I began to think they were all like that, BUT then I tried one in Chappells and it was fab - completely different sound world.

The owners of the 'muffled' Kemble aren't at all happy with it, and tell me it sounded different in the showroom. I rolled my eyes and told them they shouldn't have brought a piano they didn't like the sound of and I put a brick through their window just to underline the point. Peasants.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 26 Sep 2008, 17:21

Hi Andyeola,

Second what you say about the Steingraeber's... I did not get to play a 130, played a 122 at Markson's which was superb and the 138 which just felt like an absolute monster - a really dark beast of a bass hehe.

Not seen a Concert 8 , though they were effectively double my price range in any case! Grotrian 124 and 132 were very nice - although the 132 felt like an oversized cabinet due to some of the big styling in it. Lovely sound though, albeit with a somewhat heavy action to my mind.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2008, 19:54

Ha ha ha!!

Hello all!

Yes, my Sauter comment was specially engineered to ruffle a few feathers, and so was the "Yamaha in drag", although as usual I believe there's more than a grain of truth in both comments. I can't see the point in wasting beautiful materials in places where they're not seen. The Victorians did it in engineering, but these were in less enlightened times when materials were plentiful. By all means use exotic materials if they add visual beauty (provided their expense can be justified) but where they are hidden away, a simpler approach whilst not sacrificing build quality seems to me to be better.

As for the Kemble, well yes, they are Yamaha designs and whilst I actually love 'em I also have as much respect for the *definitive* models, the U1 and U3 from which the Cons, Conc, Moz and other Kembles are derived, and these definitives are just as worthy of consideration.

I detect an anti Yamaha backlash in the trade, and there are many dealers who laud Kemble and slate Yamaha. This is terribly unfair on a handful of Yamaha dealers who prepare their pianos nicely and sell without the crippling discounts to which some dealers stoop. It's these dealers who should be avoided, not the product.

Off topic here: Yeah, the Blüthner A. It's a belter...... (contd. p94)

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 26 Sep 2008, 20:59

hehe cheers Piano Guy.

If it makes you feel better I had the pleasure of playing a couple of SU7's last time I was looking for a piano, and also the SU118, and I thought both were superb - its a beautiful action for sure

Oh - and the Sauter I am waiting for has a custom burl walnut veneered key rail - so some exotic wood where it will be seen and appreciated - if only by me

and hey my tuna will get to appreciate the lovely looking birdseye maple once every 4 months or so lol

andyaeola · Post by **andyaeola** » 26 Sep 2008, 21:11

Yeah, the Blüthner A. It's a belter......

It really is; as you've said the size is nice, I think especially in a restrained wood finish.
I tried to persuade my sister of these things, but before we set foot in store, it had to be black. Then she wanted the sound of the B. So in her modest living room with typical wooden furniture sits a big black box. It's semi camouflaged with music on top and a dining chair to sit on. Now that really irritates me. 12k for a piano and she won't fork out for an adjustable bench.

The SU7 isn't a subtle sounding instrument, but the action is a pleasure, true.

What's the best price for a Bechstein 8 these days? Last time I was in Harrods the price tag was 23k

, minus 10% as they had a sale on

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 26 Sep 2008, 21:14

PianoGuy wrote:I detect an anti Yamaha backlash in the trade, and there are many dealers who laud Kemble and slate Yamaha. This is terribly unfair on a handful of Yamaha dealers who prepare their pianos nicely and sell without the crippling discounts to which some dealers stoop. It's these dealers who should be avoided, not the product.

But Yamaha themselves didnt do anything to stop or reduce the discounting either did they. Plus they may be ok kit but its boring being faced with yet another U1 OR U3.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2008, 21:21

mdw wrote: But Yamaha themselves didnt do anything to stop or reduce the discounting either did they. Plus they may be ok kit but its boring being faced with yet another U1 OR U3.

Very true, and they're paying the price.

More loyalty to Kemble and Kawai from their dealers. Admittedly the Kemble designs on the theme are becoming very interesting compared to black poly U1s and U3s, but they have their share of terrible efforts as well, viz the new "Contemporary" Cambridge and Oxford. You would have thought they'd have learned from the mistake that was the (Kemble designed and built) Yamaha V-Series.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 26 Sep 2008, 22:16

What an enlightening week .. avid contributors, experienced advice, personal preferences, interesting opinions and the odd tweeked tail!

More fact, friction and fun than anticipated when I signed up last Sunday! Thank you all.

Meanwhile back on topic ... The Bluthner A has been the only one so far which truly captivated me, magically. Everything else has been a comparison to it. Which I guess tells me the answer! Though for completeness I'll try the Sauter before finally deciding.

Adding to the Yamaha/Kemble debate, once again, the Kemble Mozart (special limited edition of 250 the last of which shipping ex-factory this week) blew me away for the price. The Conservatoires did not, due to their sub-optimal voicing and intonation; they should be capable of more.

Tomorrow then .. can't wait!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Sep 2008, 08:00

ennjaydee wrote:What an enlightening week .. avid contributors, experienced advice, personal preferences, interesting opinions and the odd tweeked tail!

Tomorrow then .. can't wait!

He he.

Good luck! I envy you. As is oft suggested on here, buy the piano that *you* feel most at one with, and use all of our comments only as a guide. It's your money and none of your shortlist are unworthy of it. Don't listen to dealer persuasion to go for one or the other it's your desicion.

I have a hunch that you'll not warm to the Sauter if you like the Blüthner A since they are quite different. Ignore the likelihood of the Sauter's poorer residuals if you really intend this to be a future heirloom, but do bear it in mind if you think you'll ever you want to upgrade or sell. There are no issues with build quality of either piano.

Having said that, as far as heirlooms go, I have a large number of customers who have Blüthners that were bought new by great grandparents and ancestors and handed down. A Blüthner is rarely sold once it has become a family 'piece'. I cannot recall an old C.Sauter having been kept in the same way, but I am sure residual values have played a part in the choice made as to whether one should have been restored or replaced.

Finally, try and buy from a dealer who is fairly close to you if this is possible. New pianos of all description even at this level can have minor issues which need adjustment and alteration once delivered, and a dealer who is 100 miles away is going to be harder to persuade to visit personally to sort out problems than one who's only a short distance away. I realise that with specialist pianos where dealers are more rarified, it's not always ideal. Worth mentioning that specialist pianos like this are not rapid sellers. Some may have been hanging about in the showroom for a few months or even years, so make sure that what you go for is as up to date as possible. This is especially important with Blüthners since latest models appear to be even better than those a couple of years old.

Have fun!

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 27 Sep 2008, 17:59

It's a Bluthner A! With gorgeous mahogany colouring and weighing in at just 225kg!

Thank you all for your advice and comments. It's been a fun week, now the real fun starts.

The only one that tempted me more was the Bluthner Model 6 Grand, but I can't accomodate it; Luckily! I am truly delighted with the A and wait for it to arrive.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Sep 2008, 18:03

Wa hey!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 27 Sep 2008, 18:30

Congrats on a gorgeous piano

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 27 Sep 2008, 18:43

I am happy for you ...

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 28 Sep 2008, 12:46

ennjaydee wrote:It's a Bluthner A! With gorgeous mahogany colouring and weighing in at just 225kg!
.

I think that's a really good decision. I had refrained from commenting before, since it's difficult to judge without seeing the pianos and knowing the prospective owner; but, as I see it, there is a huge gulf between the Steinway/Bluthner/Bechstein/Bosendorfer pianos and "the rest", especially if you want to treasure it for many years.

And this might sound silly and unscientific, but any pianist, at any level, sounds better on a top quality piano.

Best of luck with it!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 28 Sep 2008, 15:53

hehe whilst I can happily agree that the Bluthner A is a lovely piano, I simply cannot agree that there is a huge gulf between the 4 makers you name and 'the rest'. I think that comment does a huge disservice to some extremely well regarded instrument makers, many of whom are only less well known as a consequence of the very low production output they have, and consequently inability to invest the sort of sums in marketing and promotion such as Steinway and others do.

In fact there are many instrument makers whose quality far outstrips that of the typical New York Steinway, they are just less shouted about

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 29 Sep 2008, 12:28

I knew that Genaa would respond to Descombes.. and with some justification. When looking for an upright piano I found the following web site in france:
http://www.euroconcert.fr/comparatif-pianos-droits.pdf
(sorry - it is in french). Anyway this guide for choosing a piano should not be taken as an absolute scale since in the end they seem to be graded in price order - however one realizes that there is a whole range of pianos and essentially you get (or should get) what you pay for - and that there is also a range in quality of pianos from each maker.
But in the case of the top four - certainly part of what you pay is to have the name Bechstein (or whatever) on the name board. With Sauter MasterClass line - instead of paying for the name on the name board - you are paying for the birdeye maple

but in my opinion - the Sauter is an excellent piano and deserves to be up among the leaders.

It would be pleasant if Ennjaydee completed this story by telling us the rest - I guess that the Sauters were tried out ... and I would guess that the tone was found to be too strong/clear?

Anyway congratulations to both Genaa and Ennjaydee for buying first class uprights - I am certain that there will be zero 'buyers remorse'. In my case - even though I was destabilised by Genaa's account of thin sounding upper register and apparent breaks in the voicing of the Bechstein - after some further study and listening - I am more than fully satisfied with the Bechstein Academy 124 that we now own... especially after a visit by our tuner who really put it through its paces.

On this forum - IMHO, there appear more stories about choosing high quality upright pianos than on the US PianoWorld form... On the US forum - there are many many stories about selecting and buying Grand pianos. Is this due to Americans having larger homes - or do Europeans accept the upright pianos more than the Americans. These 'quality' uprights cost the same as 'economy' grand - but certainly the upright fits my home and lifestyle better than a grand piano

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 29 Sep 2008, 12:57

Crispin wrote:
It would be pleasant if Ennjaydee completed this story by telling us the rest - I guess that the Sauters were tried out ... and I would guess that the tone was found to be too strong/clear?

Yes I tried the M130 - the sound is very clear and open and the piano has a fine action. My only concern was that it was powerful too, and with my low(ish) ceilings I felt it would be just a bit too much. I have similar feelings about Steinway models in general. I tried the Bluthner B and C too. (And the Model 6 Grand which is simply wonderful, but fortunately not something I can accommodate. Well it is the credit crunch after all!) In the end the sweet Bluthner A is beautifully proportioned and gives a warm rich tone that I fell sure will provide many years of tireless enjoyment.

ermy73 · Post by **ermy73** » 14 Oct 2008, 20:20

I've had the Kemble Mozart 121 and I am afraid to say that it was not a good piano as it had a horrible double-striking problem. I contacted Kemble and they immediately sent 2 technicians who aknowledged the problem and didn't manage to solve it. They took it back to the factory twice without managing to solve the problem. In the meanwhile I tried other Mozart Kemble and noticed that the problem was in all of them. In the end they replaced the piano with a k131 (without paying any extra) which I still have and must say that it's a great piano. Kemble's service was outstanding I was very pleased as they solved the issue in the best possible way. However, I can't say the same with the Mozart piano, I hope that Kemble is looking into this annoying problem.

Post by **vernon** » 14 Oct 2008, 20:36

Double-blow is usually a simply cured regulation problem.
Depth of touch needs to be put right.( ie too shallow)

ermy73 · Post by **ermy73** » 14 Oct 2008, 21:33

Still both my trusted technician and Kemble's technicians (who brought the piano back to the factory twice) didn't manage to sort it out.

Post by **vernon** » 14 Oct 2008, 22:48

perhaps an Easyjet ticket to and from Inverness may sort it.

Post by **vernon** » 14 Oct 2008, 23:10

there must be one ofseveral reasons for double-blow and any experienced tech would sort it. He can't go away and say "I don't know what it is."
An airline pilot lands and reports that his radar doesn't work. What would happen if the radar tech reports he has no idea what the fault is!
All faults have a fix.
If you are at the regulating bench in a factory installing action, dampers and keys and then regulating, you can't send the case down to the foreman saying" I can't fix the double -blow." You send it down fixed.

huff puff

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 15 Oct 2008, 07:02

Dear Vernon

What about a design fault? According to ermy73 many of these Kemble Mozart 121 have this problem and the solution offered by Kemble is to upgrade to the K131.

I would prefer that the radar unit in the plane is upgraded to the next model than have the technician called out to adjust it for each flight

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 15 Oct 2008, 07:28

crispin wrote:Dear Vernon

What about a design fault? According to ermy73 many of these Kemble Mozart 121 have this problem and the solution offered by Kemble is to upgrade to the K131.

I would prefer that the radar unit in the plane is upgraded to the next model than have the technician called out to adjust it for each flight

I don't buy that. The Mozart is merely a chuffin' U1 with a fancy case and a few materials refinements, so why should it be blighted with a design fault or be more tricky to fix than a U1 of which there are many thousand in regular reliable service? I have a few Mozarts on my round and they're all fine. It is more like ermy73 has simply got a rogue one and may be subconsciously exaggerating the problem in others he's seen, so will never be satisfied with one. Kemble probably detected this and gave him the K131 upgrade to set his mind at rest. It's good customer service, (typical of Kemble but strangely not of Yamaha) and costs them no more, since the difference in production cost is negligible. In fact, the Mozart case almost certainly costs more to produce than a stock K121 case.

Everybody's a winner. Ermy73's got a better piano, Kemble aren't out of pocket.

Job's a good 'un.