W.H. Paling & Co. Ltd.

[harm73]

hi everyone,

I have a W H Paling & Co Ltd Piano, Victor Patent with Serial Number 21234. Now it has something I've never seen before (ok I'm not a piano expert so its not really hard). But the lid has a double opening movement. So the lid folds back once (to show half the length of the keys), then it folds back a second time (to show the full keys and makers brand etc) and during the second movement the middle section of the upright pushes outwards on an angle (where you would place your music)... I must apologise for being so technical!!

A gentleman who looked at the piano hadn't seent this before either and thought it might have been a converted Pianola. Does anyone have a thought on this?? I thought it was just a lovely action the piano did.

Any advice, thoughts, or commentary is very much appreciated.

Cheers Harm

[Bill Kibby]

The lid which closes on the keyboard is called the FALL, and some pianos have a FOLDING FALL in which the front half folds back onto the back half, then the whole thing swivels backwards. Our 1906 Broadwood upright has one of these, but they are more common in grands and American uprights. The use of the centre panel as a music desk is more likely to be German or American, nothing to do with Pianolas, but obviously, Palings had picked up these ideas, and thought they were worth using. I have never seen the two ideas linked together, but then my main experience is with British pianos. We have no archive material here about Palings.

[vernon]

we sold a Heintzman( Canadian) that had that arrangement for opening the music desk.It also had 3 pedals, the middle one of which lifted only the bass dampers.

[harm73]

Thank you both Bill and Vernon for the information. I thought the action was too precise to be the result of a conversion but I'm much relieved. It is an american built upright, and does have the 3 pedals. Sounds like this piano has a lot of movements in the one unit!! Its quite out of tune, has a couple of dead keys, but I absolutely love it. Next thing I will see if someone is prepared to have a crack at tuning it. A lot of the music stores I've spoken to (here in Australia) have said they wont touch a piano over 60 years old. And this one could be as old as 105 years. Regardless its the new love of my life (husband and kids demoted). Thanks again for your advice, I truly appreciate your time!!

Cheers Harm

[Pianomate]

I expect your music stores are only keen on tuning pianos they sell. Check your business directory listings for independent piano tuners and technicians.

[harm73]

thanks pianomate, am in the process of doing that now! thank god for the Australian Piano Tuners and Technicians Association

Fingers crossed all will be good.

Cheers Harm

[Eppinger]

Hi Harm,

It seems like your Paling piano is quite similar to mine (refer to your post on March 8, 2009 after my post with photo under "Victor W.H Paling & Co. piano". I am in Australia too and my piano has an operable middle panel as well. It has a name of MAXIM and W H Pailing with the serial No 84227, made in USA in the 1940's I was told. The idea of operable middle panel is similar to some of Yamaha's luxury model like YUS and UX, which the maker claimed that such opening would allow sound come out from the front, making the music richer.

[iangp]

Hi folks....Just purchased a WH palings , USA, upright piano with "folding fall" which sounds exactly like the one owned by "harm73". The Serial No. is :----20098. Any idea as to the age of this old girl ?
Currently reside in Qld. Australia.............Best Regards .....iangp

[Bill Kibby]

I think we have already said that we have no dates of their numbers, and we don't seem them over here. Sorry!

[harm73]

Hi Ian,

I also reside in Qld, and have a specialist tuner coming out to my place on Thursday next week to take a look. If I can get an approximate age from him then I'll let you know, as the serial number of your piano is close to mine.

Cheers Harm

PS - Sorry Bill, you must be wishing you'd never heard of W H Paling & Co!!

[Bill Kibby]

No, I just wish I had 46 years to study Australian pianos in the way I have done with British ones, and 46 to study American pianos, etc.!

[harm73]

Hi all,

Well I've had my piano tuned and she sounds like a dream!! Estimated date of our piano (from our tuner) is 1909. Hope that gives an indication for others trying to age their Palings piano's.

Got to go....Moonlight Sonata awaits!!

Cheers Harm

[Lofty Ridge]

I posted this elsewhere but I have a Victor paling purchased in about 1934 for 202 pounds. It is a pianola with the folding fall (I learnt something tonight) and the front panel can be pulled out about 1 1/2" at the bottom. serial number is 92203.

[altomic]

2 years down the track.
I just received a free WH palings , USA, upright piano with "folding fall" . The Serial No. is :----20312. Any idea as to the age ?

The piano was sitting outside someones house and I asked if they were getting rid of it and they said I could have it. 3 hours to push it the 5 blocks home.

Currently reside in Brisbane Qld. Australia

I note that this firm is actually an australian firm originating in Brisbane from the 19th century.

needs some cosmetic work and the keys are a little swollen from damp (though more are freeing up every day)

[Bill Kibby]

Now that I have dates of numbers, yours suggests that it was made in 1908, but without photos, it is impossible to know if this is likely. Most pianos have several numbers inside.

[vernon]

I've got a Canadian Heinzmann with the same fall/top door arrangement. It also has 3 pedals, one of which operates all the dampers and the other only the bass section ( for some inknown reason). The other is a half blow

[Bill Kibby]

A folding fall usually means the fall itself is split in two halves, the front folds back into the back part. Is this what you mean? And how does it involve the top door?

[vernon]

Bill' If your enquiry was for me it goes like this;
The fall folds back in half flat,but it still partly covers the keys.Therefore,you push the whole lot in and two arms at the back of the fall unit tilt out the bottom of the top door. ie the top door is hinged at the top.

[Bill Kibby]

A fold-away folding fall then!

[vernon]

Exactly! but with the added luxury of an integral top door bottom pusher outer

[cassie9]

Hi everyone,

I bought a Victor W.H Paling & co just this weekend for $100. Serial number is 17787. Apparently by the other forum on this site mine is 103 years old - 1908. It also folds twice at the keys and the middle pops out to rest the music notes on. It's in great condition and plays well. Now I just need to learn!

[Nousha]

Hi everyone,

I am an amateur in Pianos and Music in general. I am trying to buy my daughter a Victor Paling Piano that the owners say is approximately 50 years old. It is in a very good condition and was wondering about the price ranges??? I understand that the serial number is important but I could not find it. I live in QLD Australia and would appreciate any price ranges to work on. I have attached pictures of the piano, posted by the owners.

Thanks.

[Bill Kibby]

Valuation is impossible without on-the-spot inspection and tuning. Pictures will not work here unless they are jpg images of suitable size.

[aperrot80]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. We've just been given my husband's great-grandmother's upright piano. It's a German made, Victor for W.H. Paling & Co. We have the serial number also. I've been reading everyone else's comments regarding their Victors and it seems almost impossible for us to date this thing! My mother-in-law seems to remember it being old when she was a child and puts it around the 90ish year mark. However, our piano tuner/restorer fellow seemed to think that a certain type of arm mechanism in the piano would put it at 75-80 years old, as this mechanism started being made around 100 years ago. So he has no idea either! Has anyone found ANYTHING on Victor serial numbers? I can't seem to find a single thig out there!!

Thanks,
aperrot.

[Bill Kibby]

If it is genuinely German made, the action will be German, so ask your tuner to look for the action makers' name and number, and I may be able to date that.

There are also Palings numbers on the net, which may or may not apply!

[peterr88]

I expect your music stores are only keen on tuning pianos they sell.

[Bill Kibby]

I don't have a music store. Dealers quite like to tune old pianos, in the hope that they can sell a better one!

[debWilson]

Hi guys,

Please can anybody help date my piano, it's a W.H Paling & Co. Victor. up-right piano, serial number 6635.

Thank you,

Deb

[Colin Nicholson]

By the time indicated for your enquiry, you seem to be about 9 hours ahead of us?
Are you in Australia by any chance?

W.H. Paling numbers are not registered I dont think, and these pianos are not well known here in the UK. I visited NSW 2 months ago, and tuned a 'Beale' (who I think made Paling pianos) - it didnt have a wrest plank, but had large sprung grub screws located from behind the piano (in a removable hidden panel) and short 'trumpet' shaped wrest pins impact driven into the cast frame from behind - quite unusual!.... hence several pins broke in half!. I suspect around 1920 - 1930's, but without photos, its just a guess. The number you give may also be a stock or cabinet number - unrecordable.

Photos please !

[Bill Kibby]

There are published dates for Palings numbers, but they start at 16449 in 1905, and I have no idea how reliable they are. I doubt if you have found the right number. Have a look at
http://pianogen.org/numbers.html

[Chris Leslie]

I know a little bit about W.H.Paling & Co.Ltd., their Victor pianos, as well as Beale. My first tuning lessons were with Palings in their Sydney piano warehouse just prior to them closing in the early 1970's.

The father of W.H.Paling was a piano maker in Holland and his son W.H.arrived in Australia during the mid 1800s to eventually start a music shop. Palings began to import pianos and re-badge pianos for sale. During the late 1880's the "Victor" name came about. Initially the pianos came from Europe and the during the early 1900 from America. At some time later on I believe that the Beale factory also made pianos for Palings. Many of these pianos still exists in Australia as any Australian tuner could tell you. Sometimes they are still in excellent condition and can sound superb.

As far as I can tell, "Victor" pianos were sourced from a variety of unknown manufacturers and therefore it is not likely to be able to age pianos from the serial numbers. Sometimes dates are however written into obscure places.

Two of my recent action reconditions were Palings. One was an example of an 1860's straight strung overdamper of mediocre quality, and the other was a late 1800's European cross strung underdamper. By this time the Palings name was cast into the plate, a practice that appeared to continue through the American manufacturers until the mid 1900s. The late 1880s action was elaborate in that the Paling initials were cast in a filigree pattern in the action frame, and the action feet were cast lion paw shapes.

The later Victor pianos, say post WW2, were probably made by Beale in Sydney and do not have the same level of detail and quality. Prior to Paling's closure there have been Japanese and Chinese pianos also badged "Victor" but also with a fake His Master's Voice dog and phonograph logo.

Colin, the Beale piano you tuned was going to shear tuning pins if you don't loosen all the big grub screws behind the back plate. This is a common problem. They take more effort to tune that normal pianos but their stability is very good since the pins cannot slip once tighten up. Beale have their own history of course, but their good period was from about 1900 when they began to manufacture their own pianos with the cast iron wrestplank and tapered pins. I believe Beale also made standard pianos for many other firms worldwide as well as Palings.

I would be interested to know if any Paling Victors, or Beale, had ever made it outside of Australia.

[Wendy Fenton]

Thank you to Chris Leslie for all his interesting information. I was looking this up and can add that the Beale company was eventually sold to W. H. Paling in 1961, and the last piano was made in about 1975 (according to Wikipedia and another unnoted source). If some of the Palings pianos are in fact Beales, there is a list of Beale's serial numbers at http://www.overspianos.com.au/beale.html

I'm wondering if Chris Leslie would know if there is any archive of W.H.Palings and the early business. Can you help here?

[Chris Leslie]

Hi Wendy

Sorry for late answer but I don't check in here very often.

I can add to my previous post that W.H.Paling had their "Victor" piano line manufactured to their requirements, including Paling logo on the plate, up to about 1900 by the German company Uebel & Lechleiter. Ubel serial numbers should date these early pianos I guess.

From about 1900 the had Laffargue from America as manufacturer of the "Victor" line. I guess also that the Laffargue serial numbers relate to the age.

I got this information from experienced technicians in Australia.

W.H.Palings also marketed a line of piano they badged "Belling", from pre-1900 to about the 1960s at least. I do not know the "Belling" manufacturer. "Belling" pianos appear to be of lesser quality than "Victors" in my opinion based on my experience servicing these instruments which still exist in some quantity in Australia.

From post-WW2 it appears that the Beale company in Sydney manufactured pianos for Palings, still with the name "Victor". Beale also manufactured pianos for other international companies during this period, e.g. Gors and Kallmann. Beale also manufactured pianos with the Beale brand using their patent steel pin block and tuning system, but the other brand names used conventional pin blocks.

I have contact details for a Beale decedent if you wish. Beale and W.H.Palings were very linked and more Paling history may be forthcoming from that person.

Chris