Collard & Collard

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deborahj
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Collard & Collard

Post by deborahj » 06 Oct 2016, 18:05

Hi,
Trying to find out the age or any info on my parents piano, its been in the family for 40+ years but hasn’t I’m afraid been tuned for about 15 years, it’s a bit grubby inside . I think its Mahogany ? There are some numbers on the inside ( please see pics below ) 163DR6 and 62617983 , but I have a feeling these aren’t a serial number.

Thanks for any help,
Deborah
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piano6.jpg
piano4.jpg
piano3.jpg
piano2.jpg
piano1.jpg

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Bill Kibby
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by Bill Kibby » 06 Oct 2016, 20:51

Could you show us what the WHOLE piano looks like? Dating pianos purely by numbers is often tricky, and Collard & Collard are the trickiest, as explained at
http://www.pianohistory.info/numbers.html

Collard serial numbers are among the most confusing and difficult, especially the 5-digit ones. Many of the Clementi and Collard dates originally published by Michel are complete nonsense, and the 1832 paperwork proves beyond doubt that the firm became known as Collard & Collard (late Clementi Collard & Collard) immediately after Clementi’s death in 1832.

The most usual thing is a neatly imprinted 3-digit model number in large, clear figures, with a scruffy handwritten serial number underneath. Is there a 3-digit number above the number that starts with 16 ? And can you tell us that number, or at least how many digits it has?

The 626 is separate from the 17983. At the moment, I can't tell if this is around 1887 or 1903, although judging by the style of the legs, 1880s seems likely.
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Bill Kibby
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by Bill Kibby » 08 Oct 2016, 11:40

I am sorry I ignored the number you mentioned with DR6 in it, because that would not be a serial number with letter in it, but I think you were probably referring to the same one I asked about, beginning with 16. I would read the number as 163975. If it is a 6-digit number, it would suggest a date around 1904, although I am surprised that the legs are that late.

Could we see a picture of the whole piano?
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deborahj
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by deborahj » 08 Oct 2016, 16:38

Thanks for the reply, there's no 3 digit number above the number that starts with 16 I'm afraid .Hope the pics below help.
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pic12.jpg
pic10.jpg
pic8.jpg
piano7.jpg

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Bill Kibby
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by Bill Kibby » 08 Oct 2016, 23:16

Seeing the whole piano makes things clearer, and I have to return to my original position, I can't see this as a 1904 piano, and my money is on it being 1887.
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deborahj
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by deborahj » 11 Oct 2016, 16:44

Thank you Bill, interesting to know.

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Colin Nicholson
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by Colin Nicholson » 12 Oct 2016, 00:02

I'm not sure if this is a reliable way to date a C&C, but someone in the USA emailed me with some information which almost looks like this piano. Added to that, was a diagram of the mechanism, dated about 1884, and supposedly the design of the parts and "swan" shaped springs put it close to the late 1880s. Some later pianos didn't have this design.

Here is the diagram which has been on my files for about a year.
If your piano tuner is able to remove the mechanism safely, this may reveal more clues....
CollardGrandAction1884.jpg
Collard Grand Action c.1884
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Bill Kibby
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Re: Collard & Collard

Post by Bill Kibby » 12 Oct 2016, 11:20

1853CollardCyclopaedia7a.jpg
That style of grand action had been in use by Collards a long time then, here is one that I have illustrated in an 1853 book.
1907Collard2341a.jpg
And this is one that I drew from the actual parts of a 1907 Collard which I used to tune for a friend. It has a separate hammer rest for each note, and is greatly influenced by Erard actions.
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